Job Discussion Forums

[strangelove]

I can recommend "Remembering the Hiragana/Katakana" by Heisig. I have completed the section on Hiragana, and the memorization technique employed worked very well for me. Keep in mind that this book doesn't cover double consonants, dipthongs, etc; nevertheless, the purpose of this book is remembering the Hiragana which it does very well. You could pick up a book like the "Japanese for Busy People Kana Workbook" for additional explanation and worksheets for practice writing the characters. In addition, you can find several good recommendations and how-to pages on amazon.com on the subject. Just put in a search for one of these books or hiragana, and you should see various recommendation listings.

[Dr.J]

Just my two cents;

As far as you can say this objectively, spoken Japanese isn't very hard. There are few pronunciation difficulties, and few strange exceptions.

If you are not planning on staying long term, I recommend concentrating on speaking and listening (obviously learn hiragana and katakana), but don't waste your time on kanji, cause your "study time" to "benefit" ratio will not be very agreeable.

[Mark]

Does the region where you live make much of a difference in learning Japanese? Most textbooks are geared towards the standard variant (i.e. Japanese as spoken in and around Tokyo), so I'm wondering how much of a disconnect there is between what I'd be studying in my books and what I'd be hearing on the street.

My understanding is that the differences between regions involve mainly grammatical word endings and intonation patterns, although I have no idea if I'm right about this.

It's weird, but I've had a Japanese person from Tokyo tell me that even speakers from the outer parts of the Kanto region are a little difficult to understand. I've also had a person from Wakaima (sp?), in Kansai, say that it took him several months before he could understand street speech when he moved to Tokyo.

Any thoughts on which regions are beneficial or problematic when it comes to Japanese language learning?

[PAULH]

Mark

thats a bit like saying to my students if they want to learn 'American English' should they learn a dialect from Maine, from new Jersey or from Seattle? If they go to the states they should be able to make themselves understood, but they learn the dialects of the differenta reas once you get there.

I think in the beginning stages you wont be able to tell when someone is speaking to you whether they come from Kansai (Its Wakayama, by the way) from kyushu,or from Tohoku, all of which have distinct dialects. its also unlikely people will expect you to be able to perfect a regional accent unless you have lived there a while and speak some of the lingo. Some one who is just learning to speak Japanese and get their head around the grammar and tries to use Kansai dialect imperfectly comes off as looking a bit foolish IMO. Its much better if you can pick up the basic language in the textbooks (though not all Japanese speak that way and start every sentence with "watashi wa......desu".) and then pick up odd phrases which you can learn. For example in Kansai instead of 'wakarimasen' (I don't understand) for a negative, Kansai people may say 'wakkaran' or 'wakarahen'. Once you learn the verb forms its easy to pick up the dialect forms. Another one is "ooki ni" for "arigatou" (thank you) . "Ooki" in Japanese means 'big'.

Japanese dont talk like the textbooks but at the same time I dont think there is a huge demand for printing books for foreigners learning Japanese on Kyushu dialect or that used in Akita.

[Mark]

[PAULH]

Mark

you also have something else that is quite prevalent here and not reallyu talked about- its the fact that Japanese think their own langauge is 'unique' that its too difficult for foreigners to learn, and often Japanese are often surprised if not amazed that westerners can not only speak, but read and write Japanese. I have been here 15 years and It still get looks of surprise when I can write my address or write Kanji. Its often said that when you start speaking japanese they will say 'Nihongo joozu desu ne" (You speak very good Japanese) and they will stop saying it when your Japanese starts getting good- its more a form of flattery (o-seiji) than anything else. If I were to be living in America its almost expect that if you live there you should be able to speak English. In many parts Hispanics etc dont speak English but thats a bit beside the point.

Japanese will be impressed if you can speak Japanese, but i dont think they will really expect you to know or speak the local dialect. The use of words and vocabulary IS different and i dont think people will hold it against you if you speak standard Japanese, and many will speak slowly, use simple Japanese if you are an obvious beginner. If you go into some areas you will get people (especially elderly people) yapping away at you in the local dialect without worrying if you can understand them or not, while you will get others who will speak to you in English even if you speak to them in fluent Japanese. It takes all sorts.

I used to go hitchhiking around the country when i was single and got rides from ex-yakuza, truck drivers housewives and hot-rodders etc and they would just use their own normal language mostly. You really just have to weigh up the situation, but generally speakin if they see a white face they will assume you cant speak much Japanese, but if you are korean or Chinese or 'Asian' they may give you funny looks or expect you to be more conversant in the language etc, becuase you look more similar to them.

To cut a long story short, I wouldnt worry too much about it- they dont talk like the textbooks but they will cut you some slack, but if you live here 10 years, get married to a Japanese lady and dont speak the language they will wonder whats wrong with you and think you are lazy, if not a bit ethnocentric i.e. you dont both to learn the local language and only speak English to people etc) I know foreigners here with Japanese spouses and can not read write or speak the langauge even after years in this country.

[PAULH]

PS

I have spent all my time in Japan in the Kansai area and I speak Japanese with a Kansai dialect- I have friends in tokyo etc (the company I work for in kansai is HQed in Tokyo ad I speak to the office girls regularly by phone) etc they can probably detect a kansai dialect on me but we understand each other very well. Depending on the level of the foreigners Japanese they will adjust their language and avoid regionalisms etc) as some of them are in Kyushu, Shizuoka etc.
I dont have a problem with tokyo dialect but i have been up to Kanzawa on the Japan Sea coast and heard the dialect up there- many of the sound like japanese-Koreans when they speak their dialect. A lot will depend on where you end up- if you go to Tokyo you may have difficulty with Kansai dialect (there are comedy troupes on TV that come from kansai and use the dialect- the Tokyo people think its a bit hick and 'country-bumpkin' compared to Tokyo but it also has a very down to earth flavor that Tokyoites enjoy. Kind of New York vs. Chicago.

[PAULH]

P.P.S

If you have a Japanese girlfriend (or your Japanese teacher is a woman) be careful what you learn or else you will end up speaking like a woman- this is not derogatory but there are different forms of speech used be men and women and women tend to use more polite and neutral language. Some women and effeminate/gay men in Japanese use affectations that most men dont use. women will say 'watashi' while men will use 'ore' or 'boku' (see other post) and people will know that you learnt japanese from a woman by the words or expressions you use- Id be more worried about that than which dialect you pick up.

[West Brom]

Paul, I thought watashi was rather formal, but fine for both sexes, and atashi was feminine. Am I wrong?

On learning Japanese, I found the hardest thing was not forgetting languages I used to know. I used to speak Russian quite well. Now whenever I try to speak Russian, I throw Japanese words into the sentence, especially particles.

[PAULH]

watashi can be used by both sexes and is a rather 'neutral' term that can be used in any situation. As some pointed out 'men's use of 'ore' and 'omae' can cause offense to others, and its not a word that women use, as far as I know.

"atashi" tends to be used more by women, and judging from what I see on TV, male tranvestite TV celebrities (yes, they do exist) and some (rather) effeminate men. Japanese is very status-bound, and you have to choose your language depending on who you are speaking to.

If you are a man and used "atashi", most Japanese would likely think you were 'that way' inclined while "watashi" though not as formal as "watakushi" will not likely cause offence.