Job Discussion Forums

[Amanda Vertner]

I'll take on sanctimonious and self-righteous and I stick by it, but it WAS NOT ME that referred to Moore's paranoia and previous posts etc. It was someone called Faulk-Like.

Regardless of who started it, I'm glad you're not taken too seriously. Just look at how many non-EUS work in Spain and somehow through work offers, family ties, marriage, make it to be legal residents here. If you were taken seriously, I wouldn't have met all these non EUs' who are now happily and legally integrated in Spain. It's not easy but they're here, with their NIE (National Identidad de Extranjero) as proof.

I will refrain from repeating exactly what my non-EU friends said in the bar last night regarding opinions expressed regarding Moore and co's. antics except to water it down to rather eccentric. They generally agreed that they were glad that they didn't take any notice of the negative outbursts on this forum regarding work in Spain. I've also had a couple of PMs overnight telling me, "Well said".

Whether you are a resident or not, you are a guest in Spain. The Spanish run Spain, we don't, and unless they've changed the law recently, we can't even vote in the general elections (Boston tea-party!!).

There are some non-EUs that want to come to Spain for a few months, learn more Spanish, experience a different culture and then go home. My personal opinion is that the money they bring as extended tourists benefits Spain. They spend what they earn in Spain.

The non-EUs I know that want to stay longer are making every effort to obtain residency via: parents/grandparents born in what is now an EU country, job offers and some with romantic ties here through marriage. These people have a genuine interest in becoming residents and continuing to live, work and integrate into Spanish society. I think that they are being quite responsible in their attitude.

I think that these people should be given a chance, Moore and co. don't.

[Moore]

I could not agree more than the American population here brightens up the scene no end: they are to a man intelligent, motivated, bright and honest. If all the Americans were to be expelled tomorrow I would lose half my social circle and also half of our football team would disappear. However, I feel no need to suck up to them by telling them that it's fine that they work here.

Who cares if I can't vote in a Spanish election? That makes me no less a resident. I am a European citizen. I am a taxpayer. I am a worker here. I am soon to be a property owner. My girlfriend and future wife is Spanish, my kids will be Spanish, in short, I am a stakeholder: I think playing the "you're -not-Spanish-so-what's-it-to-you? card is just crass.

Quote:"There are some non-EUs that want to come to Spain for a few months, learn more Spanish, experience a different culture and then go home. My personal opinion is that the money they bring as extended tourists benefits Spain. They spend what they earn in Spain": So do you think that legal EU workers do any different? The difference is that they also pay income tax and social security payments. IVA is just a small part of the tax system: people who work here illegally are robbing the state: it is plain and simple tax evasion. Any American citizen who wants to come here can do so on a tourist visa and spend their money and not work, study if they like: nobody's stopping that. Why can't they work at home and bring money here?

I have been here several years. I am looking down the wrong end of a 180,000 euro mortgage for a shoe-box size flat in Madrid. This really does alter your perception of the value of a steady, stable job with full rights, pensions, sick pay etc. This is something which does not happen much in Madrid, the vast majority of contracts are for ten months, fend for yourself in summer: this would have a mouch better chance of changing, sachools would be a lot more eager to hang on to teachers during times of low business if they thought they needed to hang on to them to assure their suppply when the market picks up again after summer, but as it is they know they can easily get a native teacher from among the flood of working holiday teachers flooding here from the States: it's true that some stay, but the vast majority do not, it's like I said before, fior a good time and not for a long time and s*d the poor fools who actually live here. Illegal workers erode our pay and our rights. Point.

It would be easier to take were it not for the constant whining I hear from accross the Atlantic about how US jobs are being outsourced and how immigrants are eroding their rights and conditions at home, and even set up vigilante groups in the Mexican desert to stop the influx.

If you are so keen on backing up your views by the agreement of others, then try this: ask a load of Spanish people wheter they think it's ok for a load of North Americans to work here illegally and not pay taxes when there is a perfectly good supply of UK and Irish workers on their doorstep: I have. They all think it's scandalous, that if you come and work in their country you should at least pay full taxes and be legal (many of them would love to go and work in the states for a year or so, but guess what? they can't, the Americans don't want a load of Europeans coming in willy-nilly and further messing up their shakey employment market). I'm serious: try asking a load of Spanish people about it.

It's all very well for you to come along with a "my home is your home attitude" - very cool, but sadly for those of us who actually have a real stake in the future of this place it's not. Before accusing others of not being Spanish enough to have an opinion, perhaps you should ask yourself what right you have to yourself to invite people to come and break the laws here.

[Karen B.]

wow, it appears as though my question has sparked some pretty heated debate. I realize that as a non-eu if i were to work in spain i would not be paying taxes and why some ppl may look down upon this. If it were possibly for me to work legally i would do it in a heartbeat (and i think i speak for all others who are or are thinking of working illegally). I am unable to do that because of the laws. Why should we as Canadians and Aussies and Americans have such a hard time and be denied work visas? That, in my opinion, is just as appalling as working illegally. The systems that govern work overseas are flawed and obviously not in line with the rapid globalization that is going on. personally i think that countries need to stop thinking in such ethnocentric terms. Unfortunately it does not look like the laws of the Eu are going to change any time soon, so where does that leave us EU's who just want to travel, work honestly and see the world? When nations make laws such as these they just encourage ppl to have to resort to things like working illegally. People who would happily work legally if allowed to. (i know that the same could be said for canada, the US and australia too...and perhaps they should change their policies too)
With that said i did not put the post to start up this debate again. I posted agian BECAUSE all the other posts only centred around this debate. it looks like neither side either for or against is going to budge in their positions. I posted in hopes of getting away from this right/wrong issue and just to get the facts of consequences. I simply want to know what would happen if i get caught. What legal ramifications and record could you get from being deported? If (and i'm not sure i will) take the risk i just want to know the consequences and assess if it is worth it. I posted this thread in hopes that anyone (or someone who knew someone) would be able to point me in the direction of where to get this legal information. I respect the opinions of all who posted (who agree or disagree with the issue) and appreciate the feedback, however i would just like the objective cold hard facts. if anyone has any info for me it would be much appreciated

[spiral78]

Ok, here's a direct risk to you as an illegal worker. You will not have health insurance.
Any travel insurance you may buy will not cover you if you are living/working illegally.
In case of an emergency, you will receive treatment in Spain, but you are also highly likely to be responsible for any bills afterwards.
It is extremely unlikely that the Canadian system would cover for you in the case that you are illegal in Spain as well.

Please remember that there are many countries where non-EU member citizens can work legally. If you choose to go to Spain, you are choosing to be illegal, under current Spanish law.

Whether the laws are fair/just/right is a moot point. Further, they are the same laws that Canada has, or the U.S. Spanish citizens can't just decide that Canada needs native Spanish speakers and go there, with just an introductory language teaching qualification, and live, and 'experience the culture.'

[avolkiteshvara]

I just want to give some of my thoughts about working illegally.

-There seems to be confusion between what is legal and what is moral. Legality doesn't always equal morality. If that were the case China would justified in torturing their citizens. Same thing for the US and Abugrave prison stuff.

-Just because Spain has an official policy of EU only teachers doesn't mean they don't condone teaching. There would be too many political ramifications of opening it up to us outsiders. Instead they simply choose to let it go. And with good reason. A better educated population does better economically which in turns provides a better lifestyle for the Spaniard as a whole.

-Moore & friends think they are getting shaftedwith pay because us Yanks, Aussies, Kiwis come to work in Spain. Fundamental economics says whenever demand is greater supply by virtue of legal restictions.......black markets exist. You can't artificially restrict supply (over the long term) by making something illegal. It just isn't possible. Even if Spain wasn't tolerant of illegal teachers........there would still be secret classes in back alleys, hidden rooms, and such, just like drugs!

[spiral78]

Fine. And just like drug runners and other doers of illegal (though possibly morally defensible) stuff, you're taking personal risks by working illegally. No one can stop you from taking those risks, but the risks remain.

[jr1965]

[b harmon]

Hi,

I'm not going to join in the heated debate , I simply want to share my experience. What happened in my case is maybe an exception more than a rule. As you all know, many Americans have grandparents from what is now known as the European Union and because of this if we can prove the link, then we can become legal and get our NIE. It's all so lengthy and I will not go on a step by step account of what has to be done. One thing though, if you�re in Spain, when they do call you in for your interview you have to be back in the US, so it can be kinda expensive with all the air tickets but it's definitely worth it.

I came to Madrid to do a TEFL course, I went on to work straight after the course and I soon realized I wanted to live in Madrid on a more permanent basis. So I did speak to friends, immigration lawyers and this European link came into the picture. One American guy I know was extremely lucky and his school got him his work visa and permit. So it can be done, not easy but there are happy endings as well.

So as I said I am not going to join this debate, I'm just stating what happend to me. I am also adding that it is not easy but doable. So please from all sides spare me the sermons.

One thing I'm willing to go all out for though is to say that Madrid rocks and I do understand why we Americans are drawn to this great city.



suerte y hasta luego,

Brian

[Mikana51]

[MAP Magazine]

[stoth1972]

I worked for a large academy in Madrid that advertised American accents to their clients. This academy provided on site classes to large companies (Johnson and Johnson) who specifically requested North American teachers. The schools had almost all the teachers under a 25 hour minimum/week agreement at a fixed monthly rate. They also provided health insurance. There is a demand for North American accents (particularly in business English), and though almost everyone at this academy was illegally employed, they did get medical benefits that a legally employed individual would have been entitled to. Getting permission to work was a HUGE task as a non-EU despite my employer needing them to meet customer demand.

[b harmon]

Just wanted to do a followup on some language academies preferring American accents. I thought I was going to do summer camp work in July and August until I got a call last week from one of the academies I work for and they asked me if I didn't mind working all of July and August to teach Business English (INTENSIVE!!!) . The offer was extremely good so I guess I'm staying in Madrid for the summer. The academy's client is a big US company going into a merger with a Spanish comapny and basically management wants their Spanish counterparts to get their English to board meeting, conference, presentation level. The guys I'm teaching are pretty advanced anyway but for them to give up the month of August in the "playa" for an intensive business English course??? this is gonna be fun.

Brian

[prescott]

I too am a non-EU passport holder who is thinking about living and teaching English in Spain for one or two years. I'm interested inSpain largely because of its history and literature. In addition, I took summer classes in Spain ten years ago and loved it.My concern is that when I return to my country of origin and go through customs, officials will notice that I overstayed the 90 days and possibly ban me from entering Spain for several years. Assuming that my emotional connection to Spain will have become much stronger by that point, I wouldn't want to be barred from traveling there. Is this a legitimate concern? Are non-EU citizens ever actually punished in this way? I would greatly appreciate any feedback. Thanks,

Prescott

[stoth1972]

No chance of that happening. You could have feasilby left Spain and travelled by train to other EU countries and have no evidence of that in your passport. Or, you could have flown to another European country from within the EU. Once inside, you don't receive multiple stamps.
Aside from that, your country of origin just doesn't care. Only the airline sending you there MIGHT be concerned if you had, for example, a return ticket that clearly was going to make you overstay your visa-the airlines are supposedly fined for this. On your way out of Spain, the passport official will ask you, and you can simply say, "I have been travelling Europe by rail."

[IreneM]

hola.....quick question......

my parents are from greece, yet i was born in the us and hold a us passport... but because my familys greek, im assuming i qualify to obtain an eu (greek) passport. could i have both? in spain, are eus and non eus hired / making the same amounts or do most schools pay eu more and non eu less? is a greek passport all i need to live and work in spain legally?


sorry i was just teaching in costa rica, where "laws" are not really laws and where no one has work papers, and the fact that you are a native english speaker will be enough to guarentee you a high salary. (spending $5 every 3 months to catch a bus to nicaragua or panama to go to the beach really wasnt anything to complain about... so most peopel dont "overstay" but still everyones working without papers)