|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
|
 Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:39 am Post subject: |
 |
|
I have been made representations to that you want to be treated as a he-male, vikdk, so be it; I respect the rules of Vatican City as they apply to me and hope you can do the same...
Meanwhile, I am not peeved off because whatever. I still feel you are not making useful contributions except those contributions that further vested interests of yourself and a tiny minority.
First of all, you can't ask for a commission in tuition fees anywhere in the world unless you have a personal stake in the enterprise; anyone can stump up money and become partners. LEt's see then how much decision-making power will be devolved to you!
I have enormous qualms about being paid a "market price" when the "market price" seems to be dictated by the expectations of colleagues who are still using data relevant to their own home countries.
If you want to talk up your value that's fine, but it's a little disingenious to constantly harp on the unscrupulous and greedy bosses here. They are that, admitted, but you have no right to right that wrong as an outsider! And righting it so that their wrong remains and you become partner in extortion doesn't really make it right.
I still feel it's the Chinese that get ripped off the most, not outsiders. And Chinese don't care much about your credentials except to select an FT who fits into their teaching staffs; they don't want to change the modus operandi of Chinese schools or of the education system. For a really qualified FT to work according to his or her professional conscience, more changes would be needed than merely adjusting our salaries upwards; to begin with - the whole education system should be modernised and humanised. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
dearest he-male Roger -
| Quote: |
| I still feel you are not making useful contributions except those contributions that further vested interests of yourself and a tiny minority |
well if you read my posts I think you would find that that the general point I'm trying to make is that interests of students and teachers lay very much intertwined, and that the quailty of education a students receives can be affected by the conditions (very much including pay) that a teacher has to work under. Why do you think this only applies to a minority of FT's? Are the majority so thick skinned they can operate at an optimal level under all extremes???
By the way you if you find contributions useful or not is very much your own say, But apparently they are stimulating enough to agitate you into a reply, so you must find some sort of use for them 
| Quote: |
| First of all, you can't ask for a commission in tuition fees anywhere in the world unless you have a personal stake in the enterprise; anyone can stump up money and become partners. LEt's see then how much decision-making power will be devolved to you! |
What kind of stake does an employee have in a company who turns up every workingday - as a professional person with time under your belt through qualification and time on job - a person who directs his product not to a dead machine but to other real live persons in the form of students -a working person who has popped around the globe rather than the corner to get to her workplace - I'm pretty sure thats a personal stake. Roger to make that last quote more convincing I think you should have used the words economic stake - and I agree with you that having that does give a little more leverage But not to worry being both a person and an FT my personal stake in the enterprises I work for is my investment of time and energy into that company (including the time and energy it took to get my qualifications and work experience) - I really think I would be rather silly if I wasn't prepaired to try and claim a good revenue from that stake - don't you By the way decisions - I'm completely free to do what I want to do, I can even arrange my own callender to a certain extent - that's actually one of the great things about China the freedom.
| Quote: |
| I have enormous qualms about being paid a "market price" when the "market price" seems to be dictated by the expectations of colleagues who are still using data relevant to their own home countries. |
I take that data thing means wages rates that kind of bunk???? Well yes things are so completely different here - our industry is a rampant market place!! Which leads me to scratch my head when wages or lack of them are argued away by using that fine and ancient western doctrine of work ethic - wasn't it John Calvin's original work that's responsible for the getting the act of working to placed up on that fine social pedistal - you know all that bumph linking religion with labour and making the idea of work a finer a nobler thing than the actual wages you get for it - something I'm afraid our Chinese compatriots find a little bewildering, but are sometimes very grateful for it when we come to bargain our wages. But saying that I'll freely admit I'm also effected by my western indoctrination into that concept of (protestant) work ethic I was brought up with - but I don't let it effect me so much as to be cheated, but it does still spur me on to give the best value for the money I'm given:lol:
| Quote: |
| If you want to talk up your value that's fine, but it's a little disingenious to constantly harp on the unscrupulous and greedy bosses here. They are that, admitted, but you have no right to right that wrong as an outsider! And righting it so that their wrong remains and you become partner in extortion doesn't really make it right |
.
outsider - I am here and contributing to this society. When people use the word outsider as you have just done Roger I think of my 8 years working with refugees - but since I seriously cannot compare my assimilation into a new society with theirs I think I'll just say - be carefull of that word - and somertimes think before you write By the way you have never seen my teaching, so why try and implicate me, through the way I think, in extortionate practice? I did public classes today for parents day - many of the parents seems very pleased with it - words which brought to mind extortion were never raised, but then again I don't work for cruel greedy bosses - I follow my own advice and boycot those type of jobs
| Quote: |
| I still feel it's the Chinese that get ripped off the most, not outsiders. And Chinese don't care much about your credentials except to select an FT who fits into their teaching staffs; they don't want to change the modus operandi of Chinese schools or of the education system. For a really qualified FT to work according to his or her professional conscience, more changes would be needed than merely adjusting our salaries upwards; to begin with - the whole education system should be modernised and humanised. |
I also think the locals get ripped off - how would you perform as a teacher under the conditions and rates of pay a local teacher has to endure? But remember by looking after our own neck of the woods could be another kind of lesson we we're giving - but then again the scale of that kind of task may cause you to want teach a more easily learnt modus operandi - just sit their and take it, because that's the way it is - but I kinda think that lesson has already been taught |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
Now the tone in your riposte has mellowed so much I am almost inclined to say it's congenial, cordial, whatever... even if there still is the occasional cheekiness.
OK, and to change the tune: we wouldn't have a njob here if the Chinese didn't exploit one another! Schools exploit students anywhere in the world - either by indoctrinating their hapless captive audiences or/and by charging them for doing it. In China the latter seems to be the fact; I have said before, every country gets the education system they deserve! If the parents here were a little smarter they wouldn't gang-press their darling emperors and empresses into classroom torture chambers because they would remember how much they hated school (and don't start telling us the parents loved school in their day - right before or after the cult revol!).
Also, of all the parents I know only one mother confided in me to say that she felt her son was being abused by the school that forced him to sacrifice 12 hours a day and 6 days a week plus uncounted official holidays!
Do the Chinese learn more than the Brits who go to school only just half as much as the Chineswe?
So those who are stupid enough to enroll their kids for extra-curricular classes are willing idiots that are supporting a useless, money-orientated system! Why should we profit from them so outrageously? OR why shouldn't we since they don't mind? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
I am a cheeky devil Rog - but at least a well paid one
Extrotion in this game - whose fault greedy bosses, stupid parents - who knows, maybe even stupid FT's -which reminds me, I have to go and read that latest krack on what line bullying is - bydie byeeeeeeeeeee |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
okay i'm back at my cheekiest best - brilliant post Rog - looks like you've found the sollution to everything -
| Quote: |
| Schools exploit students anywhere in the world - either by indoctrinating their hapless captive audiences or/and by charging them for doing it |
looks nasty - education viewed as a waste of good hard earned money - and anyways any education can be viewed by a another as a dasterdly piece of indoctrination!!! Blast the whole lot of 'em inta orbit - including all those teaching types - then you aint got a problem have ya
| Quote: |
| I have said before, every country gets the education system they deserve! |
yeps no more schools, so I could change me work to a kind of ludite figure who stalks the maternity ward of the local hospitle screaming at new born babies - "yur Chinese so it's yur fault things are like this - and I'm gonna make sure you get what yur deserve".
| Quote: |
| Do the Chinese learn more than the Brits who go to school only just half as much as the Chineswe? |
Try taking that question onto a council estate in Toxteth or crack pad in Tower-Hamlets - and anyways what is your definition of all that usefull "learning stuff" Rog - is it like academic bumph - like dipthongs and sonnets, or does it relate more to kind of stuff you have to experience in course of developing into a well- rounded happy type of person who has the freedom (of course within the bounds of mainstream social norms) to live her life in a way she feels fit??? But blimey with all this norms malarky we're getting back to the guiding hand of society and indoctrination!!!! yeps Rog ol' bean scrap the lot - ignorance is a potential freedom that also holds an economic insentive
But then again Rog I don't do any extra curricula classes - so shizer I'm free of that taint. No boycot them after hour classes and then Rog wont need to abolish education - and you know what, at the same time, you can demand a good share of the whack for work done during normal school-hours |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| vikdk wrote: |
| dearest Roger -: |
And "dear Rog..."
Yes, go on! If you keep it that way you are proving that even at your ripe and mature advanced age you can learn a new trick or two!
Back to your verbose post (to my taste anyway): I rhetorically asked whether Chinese putting in well over 40 classroom hours a week are better prepared to face life as wage-earners, mate! Quite specifically, what advantage does anyone see in adding hours to a child's daily trauma in a crowded and relatively unfriendly, competitive environment where sycophants get ahead of others? What subjects are so important?
The fact is that adults decided how minors have to spend their days, and the needs of kids are hardly given any consideration. I asked a number of my students from primary school to university level and was dumbfounded upon hearing what they had told me. Some have ten hours of English a week (!), plus an equal number of Chinese; add to this all the compulsory stuff - geography, biology, history (this is for a primary school), plus a weekly session of PE and some music. Sometimes less is more, and in case of English teaching I think 10 hours is over the top, especially so if you see what they are NOT DOING in those English classes (or if you prefer: when you see what they are doing all the time!). No wonder there is a sullen fatalistic submission to a tyranny that wouldn't be accepted elsewhere.
That's not even all of it: add their homework assignments - which seem to be designed to penalise kids for having time off school... or to keep them busy so that their parents and caretakers can take their eyes off them, perhaps.
During the recesses there are obligatory tai qi juan exercises and once a day eye-training (or whatever it should be called in English).
These kids don't learn how to learn, and they don't learn to appreciate free playing and sports. They do not cultivate individual hobbies, or only in very, very rare cases.
Of course, as a hugely well-paid FT (I was going to write "overpaid"...) you are not concerned with such details. You are, may I say so, more interested in your own livelihood and in maximising your comfort and pay level - it's legitimate if you ask me, but it's too narrow if you want to link your personal salary to the students' achievements!
For a well-rounded development of kids parents ought to assume more responsibility, and they ought to reduce the burden of their own progeny.
I for one would be happy enough if my income stayed the same but my class sizes were halved! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Midlothian Mapleheart
Joined: 26 May 2005
Posts: 623
Location: Elsewhere
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
post deleted
Last edited by Midlothian Mapleheart on Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
|
| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 2:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
my very dearest wogerkins -
| Quote: |
| I for one would be happy enough if my income stayed the same but my class sizes were halved! |
one could expect no less of you - saint Roger you are a wery wery special person - after all wasn't it you that said in another forum something on the lines of ESL was your hobby and you didn't need to depend on it for your livelyhood
Hey middy a bit more meat in your post to go after -
Somebody told me when already choosing primary school that they were already looking for one where their kids could start to nuture relationships with other kids that could latter blosom into profitable gaunxi!!! Childhood as we know it is short here - a beacon warmth - no I think an Island of compasion and understanding would more in place - athe very worst our lessons can be aplace of sanctuary - while trying to be a treacherous coral reef being battered by a force ten gale as far as any explioting employers are concerned |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| While I can go along with "roger dearie" or "dear Rog" I do not wish to see the various words of endearment abused by you, vikdk; if you have something to say, say it but refrain from decorating your posts with inappropriate appellations ("saint" Roger) or corrutpions of my name. You know you have been aggravating things for a long time; stay civilised now and we can take you more seriously. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
|
| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 6:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| deary deary me |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
