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dbooster
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 33
Location: Okazaki
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 Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| fox1 wrote: |
The stuff about Amish and "is it right of him to judge us by his morals"...:
there is a line is a line is a line.
It's not about western culture.
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And who defines that line?
All law, moral or otherwise, is subjestive. You might say killing someone is morally wrong, but another culture may not see anything wrong with it and wouldn't be able to understand your reasoning against it. Why does a line we define matter while a line another culture may define doesn't? Many tribes in Africa find nothing wrong with the women - young girls included - walking around topless. Would you go to them and tell them they are wrong for being so accepting of child porn (the young girls walking around that way)? |
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Synne
Joined: 06 Apr 2004
Posts: 269
Location: Tohoku
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| dbooster wrote: |
| fox1 wrote: |
The stuff about Amish and "is it right of him to judge us by his morals"...:
there is a line is a line is a line.
It's not about western culture.
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And who defines that line?
All law, moral or otherwise, is subjestive. You might say killing someone is morally wrong, but another culture may not see anything wrong with it and wouldn't be able to understand your reasoning against it. Why does a line we define matter while a line another culture may define doesn't? Many tribes in Africa find nothing wrong with the women - young girls included - walking around topless. Would you go to them and tell them they are wrong for being so accepting of child porn (the young girls walking around that way)? |
Been Africa crusading for young women have we??  o-la! |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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huh? "why bother opening such trashy mail....". Ignoring it doesn't do anything, does it? The physical mail itself doesn't bother me nearly as much as the reality of what's going on day by day
Is that how you solve all "troubling" issues... by not opening the mail, or the document, or not watching the report?..... it's just a question. |
Oh, come on!
1. If you know it's going to contain something offensive, don't open it. Follow what others have recommended repeatedly here, and mark your mailbox so you don't get more.
2. If you really want to "fight city hall" on this, get a grassroots movement going and take on the entire Japanese pornography industry. If it's not pornography itself that has spurred your post here, then fire up another grassroots movement to take on the ... uh... what it is again you are so up in arms against?
No, that last remark is not being sarcastic. I know of quite a few Japanese women (not girls) with no mammaries, and with a little makeup and photographic enhancement, they could pass as much younger. I'm not saying your situation is like that, but to say "no mammaries = preteen" is not 100% true.
You don't like the fact that someone who appears to be so young is pictured in some sort of provocative pose because it represents some kind of immoral or illicit sense of Japanese culture. This is the best I can fathom your disgust here. Have you seen anyone else here that says the opposite? Even those of us who have stated that it's part of the culture agree with you. As to what we do to fight against that, well, that's a personal choice as much as protesting rights on abortion, in a way. Many people just don't put forth that effort. Are you putting those people down for their complacency? It sounds like it. Don't put down foreigners in another country for accepting a huge situation that they probably cannot change (and don't feel like putting in the time to work on because of their already busy lives in a land where they are working a lot and just trying to get by).
If you were teaching in Iran, would you be visibly protesting against the nuclear arms potential there?
If you were in another Middle East country where killing one's wife for talking to another man is legally acceptable, would you protest against that? |
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AndyH
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 417
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:21 am Post subject: |
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I think Glenski's latest response is the best I've read on this thread so far. None of us who disagree with fox1 are saying that children posing in a sexually provocative manner is okay. You are right to take offense at such material.
However, you will have to recognize the fact that there is probably little you can do about it, and getting so upset is a waste of energy.
And, as I've pointed out before, this type of stuff is hardly limited to Japan.
Do I condone it? Hell no. Before I became an English teacher, I worked in law enforcement for five years, and saw firsthand the damage that sexual predators can do. Some of the stuff I was exposed to makes this type of thing you are describing seems miniscule. Prior to that, I was in the US Marine Corps, and in my three trips to the Middle East, saw far worse things happen to both children and adults than pseudo-child porn. It makes one put a new perspective on things.
So when you think that we want to ignore the evils in Japanese society such as the ads you saw, just remember that to some of us, there are far worse things to get upset about. |
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newyorkbunny
Joined: 18 Jun 2005
Posts: 75
Location: Tottori
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 1:04 am Post subject: |
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Glenski and AndyH, very lovely posts. I concur with both.
As a woman, I hate having to be exposed to sexually imagery of any sort and I have become increasingly upset in my native country and what is becoming acceptable. However, I can still shield myself from the worst of it. In Japan though, it is a lot more prevalent. Just a walk through Akihabara last week reminded me of the situation here.
There was a young girl with Dad standing next to disgustingly explicit video games and he did not try to protect her from seeing it whilst they were browsing the store. Hmm... The things we see!
Fox1, I hope you can take heart in the fact that there are those of us who understand where you are coming from. I love Japan and I love the Japanese but I will never agree to what I consider the very immoral aspects of the culture.
I am reminded by what a Rabbi once explained to his congregation, it is not up to us to tell others how to lead moral lives, it is up to us to set an example.
Best of luck.
nyb |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| I concur with Glenski's posts. |
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Hoser
Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 694
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 10:03 am Post subject: |
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Christ there's no way that girl is 11 years old!!!! Oh well-whatever helps Japanese-Sino relations I suppose. |
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Yawarakaijin
Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 504
Location: Middle of Nagano
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Hoser there is a smaller link inside which goes to a website called Itoumo or something like that. Click that , I believe that is the kind of stuff the op was alluding to.
http://www.imouto.tv/ |
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fox1
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| dbooster wrote: |
And who defines that line?
All law, moral or otherwise, is subjestive. You might say killing someone is morally wrong, but another culture may not see anything wrong with it and wouldn't be able to understand your reasoning against it. Why does a line we define matter while a line another culture may define doesn't? Many tribes in Africa find nothing wrong with the women - young girls included - walking around topless. Would you go to them and tell them they are wrong for being so accepting of child porn (the young girls walking around that way)? |
Where did I say anything about "a line WE define"? It's not about a line that WE define. It's not about western culture. When I say, there is a line, that's not about western culture. |
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fox1
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| Quote: |
huh? "why bother opening such trashy mail....". Ignoring it doesn't do anything, does it? The physical mail itself doesn't bother me nearly as much as the reality of what's going on day by day
Is that how you solve all "troubling" issues... by not opening the mail, or the document, or not watching the report?..... it's just a question. |
Oh, come on!
1. If you know it's going to contain something offensive, don't open it. Follow what others have recommended repeatedly here, and mark your mailbox so you don't get more.
2. If you really want to "fight city hall" on this, get a grassroots movement going and take on the entire Japanese pornography industry. If it's not pornography itself that has spurred your post here, then fire up another grassroots movement to take on the ... uh... what it is again you are so up in arms against?
No, that last remark is not being sarcastic. I know of quite a few Japanese women (not girls) with no mammaries, and with a little makeup and photographic enhancement, they could pass as much younger. I'm not saying your situation is like that, but to say "no mammaries = preteen" is not 100% true. |
but they don't have faces of 11 year olds!
| Quote: |
You don't like the fact that someone who appears to be so young is pictured in some sort of provocative pose because it represents some kind of immoral or illicit sense of Japanese culture. |
well, I never said that.....
| Quote: |
| This is the best I can fathom your disgust here. Have you seen anyone else here that says the opposite? Even those of us who have stated that it's part of the culture agree with you. As to what we do to fight against that, well, that's a personal choice as much as protesting rights on abortion, in a way. Many people just don't put forth that effort. Are you putting those people down for their complacency? It sounds like it. |
where did I put people down???
| Quote: |
| Don't put down foreigners in another country for accepting a huge situation that they probably cannot change (and don't feel like putting in the time to work on because of their already busy lives in a land where they are working a lot and just trying to get by). |
putting down?
| Quote: |
If you were teaching in Iran, would you be visibly protesting against the nuclear arms potential there?
If you were in another Middle East country where killing one's wife for talking to another man is legally acceptable, would you protest against that? |
well, I'm not living in Iran nor Saudi Arabia. Anyway, I don;t know where I said other board members have to do something.. |
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fox1
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| AndyH wrote: |
I think Glenski's latest response is the best I've read on this thread so far. None of us who disagree with fox1 are saying that children posing in a sexually provocative manner is okay. You are right to take offense at such material.
However, you will have to recognize the fact that there is probably little you can do about it, and getting so upset is a waste of energy.
And, as I've pointed out before, this type of stuff is hardly limited to Japan.
Do I condone it? Hell no. Before I became an English teacher, I worked in law enforcement for five years, and saw firsthand the damage that sexual predators can do. Some of the stuff I was exposed to makes this type of thing you are describing seems miniscule. |
But this is legal!
About getting upset being a waste of energy, first of all, my energy is fine. Secondly, you just go with your gut. If I feel something is up, then I'm going to talk about it, throw it around, see what people think...... think about it, research something maybe, do something, who knows.
| Quote: |
Prior to that, I was in the US Marine Corps, and in my three trips to the Middle East, saw far worse things happen to both children and adults than pseudo-child porn. It makes one put a new perspective on things.
So when you think that we want to ignore the evils in Japanese society |
uh, I don't know where I wrote that. I simply asked simple questions of people here
| Quote: |
| such as the ads you saw, just remember that to some of us, there are far worse things to get upset about. |
.....questions about this here. Sure, let's talk about the Middle East or elsewhere, anytime |
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fox1
Joined: 22 Feb 2005
Posts: 268
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| newyorkbunny wrote: |
Glenski and AndyH, very lovely posts. I concur with both.
As a woman, I hate having to be exposed to sexually imagery of any sort and I have become increasingly upset in my native country and what is becoming acceptable. However, I can still shield myself from the worst of it. In Japan though, it is a lot more prevalent. Just a walk through Akihabara last week reminded me of the situation here.
There was a young girl with Dad standing next to disgustingly explicit video games and he did not try to protect her from seeing it whilst they were browsing the store. Hmm... The things we see!
Fox1, I hope you can take heart in the fact that there are those of us who understand where you are coming from. I love Japan and I love the Japanese but I will never agree to what I consider the very immoral aspects of the culture.
I am reminded by what a Rabbi once explained to his congregation, it is not up to us to tell others how to lead moral lives, it is up to us to set an example.
Best of luck.
nyb |
Thanks
I should add that I never saw this as a one-way street. there are many areas in which japan outdoes "western" morally. Many many many things I don't have a problem with here. I am all for freedom of expression, personal and in general. But provocative pix of 11-year-olds (real ones) in sex mags rubs me the wrong way |
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Yawarakaijin
Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 504
Location: Middle of Nagano
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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You shouldnt be rubbing yourself at all while looking at pictures of 11 year old girls  |
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Lynn
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 696
Location: in between
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Yawarakaijin wrote: |
Hoser there is a smaller link inside which goes to a website called Itoumo or something like that. Click that , I believe that is the kind of stuff the op was alluding to.
http://www.imouto.tv/ |
If you click the link "sample page" you can see that the girls are as young as 9 years old. It's all very distrubing. It's the parents of the children that disburb me the most.
I've heard some Japanese explain that they think pictures are safe because there is no actual prostitution involved. However, no one really knows the how prevelant child molestation is because Japanese are less likely to report it.
Fox, you have a right to be upset about this. No, I don't think you can change it, but you have ever right to be disgusted by it. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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So when you think that we want to ignore the evils in Japanese society
uh, I don't know where I wrote that. |
Read June 2, 1:50pm from fox:
| Quote: |
| huh? "why bother opening such trashy mail....". Ignoring it doesn't do anything, does it? |
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