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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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 Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:40 am Post subject: |
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Deportations do in fact happen, despite what some people will say.
Examples:
* Here
* Here
* Here
* Here
Three of those are from this year. |
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Dr_Zoidberg
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 406
Location: Not posting on Forumosa.
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| Fortigurn wrote: |
| Deportations do in fact happen, despite what some people will say. |
#1 Got caught up in local politics and pissed off a lot of people.
#2 Doesn't say why.
#3 Didn't bring his diploma, now wants to get around the FOAD stamp by losing his passport in HK.
#4 Got caught working in a school for which he had no work permit. |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr_Zoidberg wrote: |
| Fortigurn wrote: |
| Deportations do in fact happen, despite what some people will say. |
#1 Got caught up in local politics and pissed off a lot of people.
#2 Doesn't say why.
#3 Didn't bring his diploma, now wants to get around the FOAD stamp by losing his passport in HK.
#4 Got caught working in a school for which he had no work permit. |
And were all deported. |
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Dr_Zoidberg
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 406
Location: Not posting on Forumosa.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| Fortigurn wrote: |
| And were all deported. |
That's not in dispute.
#2 doesn't say why she and her husband were deported, so I can't comment on that, but...
#3 wants to try and sneak back into a country that has told him to stay out. Hardly an exercise in honesty.
#1 & #4, despite their best intentions, each did something stupid and got nailed for it.
The point is the Taiwanese authorities do not target foreigners for deportation indiscriminately. In spite of all the hoopla that's made about deportations, not one person has ever claimed he was within the law when he got busted.
If such a person exists, he should come forward. I'm sure many of us would like to hear his story. |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| Dr_Zoidberg wrote: |
| The point is the Taiwanese authorities do not target foreigners for deportation indiscriminately. |
I wasn't arguing that the Taiwanese authorities target foreigners for deportation indiscriminately. I was arguing that people are deported, and they are deported more commonly that most people here assert.
They are also deported for reasons which some people have asserted will not incur deportation. |
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stumpy
Joined: 30 May 2006
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| A few years ago, I met a teacher that had overstayed his 1 year visa by about a year and a half. The authorities stopped and questioned him at length at the airport. Apparrently his overstay went unchecked and only came to light when he tried to leave the country. I asked him, "So what happened?". He said that they fined him so much for every day overstayed and wouldn't let him back in to the country for a year. He claimed that crying gained him sympathy. To my knowledge, he hasn't been back to Taiwan,yet. I'm not sure if he was actually deported, but this the only case that I've heard of first hand, that comes close to deportation. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Fortigurn wrote: |
| Dr_Zoidberg wrote: |
| The point is the Taiwanese authorities do not target foreigners for deportation indiscriminately. |
I wasn't arguing that the Taiwanese authorities target foreigners for deportation indiscriminately. I was arguing that people are deported, and they are deported more commonly that most people here assert. |
While this may be technically true, I feel that it is counter-productive to establishing the truth for foreign teachers who use this forum.
Claims were made that suggested that there were deportations happening left, right, and center. It was further insinuated that you could be deported for doing nothing wrong. Quite clearly both of these statements are untrue and this is why discussions were had on this matter.
As Dr_Zoidberg has pointed out, the people who have been recently deported were all deported for breaking the law - whether they did so intentionally or not. This is nothing new, it is just that more of us are actually hearing about teachers getting deported.
I think an important distinction for us to make is that there is no evidence to suggest that the actual number of deportations of foreign teachers has increased in recent years. Anyone who feels otherwise is welcome to provide some statistics to back their argument up.
There have been some deportations recently for activities that have always been illegal, but for which the authorities have traditionally turned a blind eye to, and I suspect that it is this shaking up that has people claiming that everyone is getting deported.
| Fortigurn wrote: |
| They are also deported for reasons which some people have asserted will not incur deportation. |
Examples? |
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sigmoid
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 1276
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:35 am Post subject: |
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When a country deports someone for 'working illegally' (which as we all know is a MAJOR CRIME right up there with serial murder, mass murder, genocide and putting out albums of really bad 'music') that country merely loses the benefit that they previously derived from the deportee choosing to live in their country.
The deportee receives the benefit of not being in that stupid country anymore. |
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jonks
Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 1240
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| sigmoid wrote: |
| When a country deports someone for 'working illegally' (which as we all know is a MAJOR CRIME right up there with serial murder, mass murder, genocide and putting out albums of really bad 'music') |
Or, posting ridiculous comments on ESL cafe... |
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Northwood
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The deportee receives the benefit of not being in that stupid country anymore. |
And we here in Taiwan will have one less odd-ball to contend with. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:37 am Post subject: |
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| sigmoid wrote: |
| When a country deports someone for 'working illegally' (which as we all know is a MAJOR CRIME right up there with serial murder, mass murder, genocide and putting out albums of really bad 'music') that country merely loses the benefit that they previously derived from the deportee choosing to live in their country. |
I fail to see what those benefits to the country could be but feel free to enlighten us.
We are talking about someone who either does not qualify for legal work here so shows contempt for the countries laws by choosing to work illegally; or someone who qualifies for legal work here but chooses for one reason or another (most likely financial reasons) to work outside of the laws of this country. There are already enough non-law abiding local citizens here in Taiwan, so how is it that this country can benefit from some foreign non-law abiding citizens.
The legal positions will be filled by legal teachers if the non-legals are not here, so it is not as if the country will be lacking in foreign teachers after the illegals are deported.
Illegals are not likely to be paying taxes so it is not clear to me how their presence here benefits the greater society.
Additionally, the contempt that these people show for the laws of living and working here is likely to be translated across to an equal contempt for other laws such as road rules and the like. The fact that illegals cannot get local driving licences pretty much ensures that they will ride and drive without licences.
But my biggest problem with illegals is the problems that they bring for legitimate teachers.
It is your right as an individual to do whatever you want here but don't come to a message board complaining that you got deported when you were deported for your choice to work illegally. Every single deportation that I am aware of relates to working in contravention to the ARC which the teacher holds i.e. working illegally. You make your own bed - so sleep in it! |
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Dr_Zoidberg
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 406
Location: Not posting on Forumosa.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| ...don't come to a message board complaining that you got deported when you were deported for your choice to work illegally. Every single deportation that I am aware of relates to working in contravention to the ARC which the teacher holds i.e. working illegally. You make your own bed - so sleep in it! |
Well said. |
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Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr_Zoidberg wrote: |
| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| ...don't come to a message board complaining that you got deported when you were deported for your choice to work illegally. Every single deportation that I am aware of relates to working in contravention to the ARC which the teacher holds i.e. working illegally. You make your own bed - so sleep in it! |
Well said. |
Ehh! Coulda been better.   |
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sigmoid
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 1276
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:46 am Post subject: |
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My point is a very simple one, perhaps too simple.
Employment, i.e. working for an employer in exchange for payment, is a PRIVATE contract between 2 (two) parties, i.e. NOT 3 (three). These 2 (two) parties are the employer and the employee.
Work only becomes 'illegal' when it defined as such by the government, who as mentioned above is not actually part of the agreement. It is obvious that the government does this solely for its own benefit, primarily control and increased revenue.
Regulation obviously has a positive role to play in a civil and well-organised society, but should be constrained within the limits of reason and respect the rights of individuals who are otherwise law-abiding.
Finally, it should be noted that to me this matter is purely one of philosophical debate. I have never been to Taiwan nor do I plan to come. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| sigmoid wrote: |
| Employment, i.e. working for an employer in exchange for payment, is a PRIVATE contract between 2 (two) parties, i.e. NOT 3 (three). These 2 (two) parties are the employer and the employee. |
You are completely missing the whole point. You don't get deported for being employed. You get deported for acting contrary to the terms of your visa and therefore your reasons for being here in the first place. Plain and simple.
If you are here on a visa for tourism or study purposes then you are not permitted to work. That is clearly stated in the legislation as well as the documents that you use when you apply for such a visa.
If you are here working legally you can only work for the company/ies that are putting their hands up as being your legal employer and therefore accepting legal responsibility for you while you are here.
Any work outside of these as far as teaching goes is illegal as you are not permitted to be here for that purpose. If you want to be here for the purposes of work then apply for such a visa.
| sigmoid wrote: |
| Work only becomes 'illegal' when it defined as such by the government, who as mentioned above is not actually part of the agreement. It is obvious that the government does this solely for its own benefit, primarily control and increased revenue. |
It is not the work that is illegal it is the act of someone who has an inapporpriate visas status taking on the work.
It is my understanding that probably every single government in the world requires non residents to meet certain criteria and obtain a relevant visa to work in the country. Which country are you from that does things so differently?
| sigmoid wrote: |
| Regulation obviously has a positive role to play in a civil and well-organised society, but should be constrained within the limits of reason and respect the rights of individuals who are otherwise law-abiding. |
Have you even read this thread? If you are law abiding then you don't get deported. Obviously! |
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