Job Discussion Forums

[tekirdag]

It isn't racism. It is an illness: incurable culture shock. After all my years in Turkey I still have it. Our cultures are different. How we do the day to day things are so different. I want to use a knife. The others use a small piece of bread to push food onto their forks. I want to butter my bread. They don't. I want bbq sauce. They use only olive oil. They shout their orders at the bufe. I expect a queue. They drink a lot of tea. I drink a lot of cola. They think my cola drinking is awful. I could go on and on...

I have cronic culture shock. I am not a racist. Most of you don't know who I am but I need everyone who reads this site to know that.

Read this, Hobo.
http://edweb.sdsu.edu/people/CGuanipa/cultshok.htm

[dagi]

Nice link, tekirdag!
"...chronic culture shock" - that's s.th. I must keep in mind! What you describe is imho, s.th. that most people feel/know who have moved to other countries. I am living in a neighbouring country of my country of origin and most people think the countries are nearly the same. Well, they are not and I could easily make a long list of things where I am different than the locals.
On one side it is great to learn about cultural differences but it is also tiring at times. Every once in a while I wish that the locals would just be like the people back home so I would not have to explain myself all the time.

[dmb]

Hey thrifty, a bit like being an EFL teacher

[tvik]

if say i like Thai food better than Chinese, am I a racist?
different cultures are different because they have differences both good and bad. i am reminded of the boring politically correct granola-lesbians I used to argue with constantly at university. I always thought they should take a trip to a hate infested war zone and try and talk the people out of killing each other. a few of them thought they could do it

[thrifty]

[hobo]

For the record, Tekirdag, my comments were not directed at you (in fact upsetting you is what prompted me to clarify). Nor in fact were my comments directed at most of those who responded. What I was commenting on was the fact that along comes a poster, who, on a variety of threads, makes crass generalizations, which I certainly would view as racist (most of my Turkish family are more than capable of not salivating at yoghurt adverts), and suddenly the whole character of the forum changes.
What is fascinating, though, is how everyone assumed I was referring to them; and the strength of feelings this raised � belittling, insults, attacks, dismissal on the basis of political correctness, frankly idiotic comparisons with food, and someone upset enough to feel the need to publicly set the record straight. (I might be wrong but I'm guessing that most who responded are part of the majority in their own countries). I think this is for the same reason that we jumped on the band-wagon; the culture shock Tekirdag refers to and language differences that often ends up with us being very conscious of being "different to them" that's its very easy to jump on these crass generalization/bordering on racism. Personally I think it's very important to guard against this precisely because it can be so easily whipped up by certain individuals and, more sinisterly, by political parties, no longer limited to the likes of the BNP.
With reference to your question about cultural observations, Almuze, IMHO the statements I was referring to seemed to be based not on culture but on ethnicity/'race', and more specifically on how "they" are so innately different in terms of ability or aptitude.
Which also brings me to your point about 'race'; your statement is revealing in terms of the assumptions that it makes. Why do you assume I am not a Turk? And if I'm not a Turk does that mean that I am not entitled to comment? And why do you assume that "the Turks" would agree or not. My point is that you are basing your argument on your husband's view of what it is to be a Turk � in his case nationality. What would someone having Turkish nationality but being of Armenian heritage say? Or a Turkish Kurd? Or a nationalist or an Islamist Turk? And can one generalise even within those categories? If you have taken Turkish nationality, does this mean you can be viewed as a Turk? What about your kids; are they Turks? More importantly, of course, though is that race, in its original meaning, has been demonstrated to be a scientific fallacy. In general racism is now used to refer to any separation of various groups based on physical attributes and that these groupings actually determine cultural or individual achievement. In other words, culture is actually viewed to be the outcome of 'race', when race is invoked to explain difference. Have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism if you're interested.
I think they key here is whether, for those of you with Turkish spouses, if you returned to your home countries with your children, and their teacher said that they are useless at school because Turks are incapable of doing anything they are not forced to do, would you find this racist?

[thrifty]

"What is fascinating, though, is how everyone assumed I was referring to them;"

What a crass generalisation to assume that everyone assumed that you were referring to them. Where is your evidence that everyone assumed this.

[Sheikh Inal Ovar]

What is fascinating is how you assume that everyone assumed you were referring to them ...

Is there no place on a discussion board for the exercise of (colourful) argument ... the object of the pursuit being logic ..

Or could it not be that it is your assumptive, omniscient and self-righteous manner that prompts people to reply ... not what you say

[justme]

[tekirdag]

If your "racism" posts are directly towards individuals then you should state that in your "racism" posts.

Of course I thought it was directed towards me or, at least, that I was included in your target.

Racism is an awful thing. To be accused of being a racist is an awful thing. You are accusing some of us, as a group, of being racists. Ouch.

It would have been better to write that you thought the posts weren't nice and to ask why they were written that way.

[Golightly]

Oh my, Hobo, I really hope that wasn't pointed at me. For your information, My wife is Turkish, my son is half-Turkish, I have taught people from something like half the countries on this planet, I work in an institution well-known fro its pluralism, multi-nationalism, and distinctly cosmopolitan nature.
Observation about the foibles of different nationalities is not racism.
Now grow up a bit.

[almuze]

hurray! just like tvik said, kind like a flash back to college. now all we need is a good dorm party and the whole thing will become truly surreal.

So, hobo, a poster is making observations you think are racist, well, racisim is in the eye of the reciever, so good on ya to point it out and stick up for yourself. However, it was starting to look a little like anytime people made general observations about turkish culture that you didn't like you would just quick post up your sticky racist definition and be done with it. a bit crass, in my opinion.

And, as both you and my sufi nieghbor point out, it is better to define yourself by what you are rather than by what you are not. (thus avoiding the whole "us vs them" mentality)

And, I think guarding against this is probably what promted so many people to write back and say that they were not making racist statements, many people here really like Turkey, even me, with all my complaints. I also complained about America when I lived there, so don't take it so personally, I kind of consider it my civic duty.
But then again, I also think people need to make "crass generalizations" just to get thro the day. You don't have enough time in the day to take every person as they come with absolutly no expectations about thier likes/dislikes. And people themselves promot this identification with a group that you can quickly make assumtions about.
Why the fashion choice between hip hop street wear or boardroom suits? Pressumably because you want your clothes to say something about you. Music you blast from an open window, menu choices you make to serve to your guests, how you serve your guests (sofra?table?sexes seperate or the same room?) these are all choices people make to express themselves as belonging to/identifiying with a particular group.
So, I think the posts you have made crying "racisim" are an over reaction.
Me saying the Turkish educational sysytem is based on fear, or that Turkish people shout more than my WASP nieghbors has nothing to do with anybodys innate intellegence.
As far as race, I said "the turks I know", and I stand by that. The turks I know (and there are some Kurds, Armenians and foriegn borns in there) would view Turkey more as a nation of people than as Race.
In America, these questions of race as you bring them up are a big deal right now, especially with Native People. In Hawaii, anyone born on the island is offically "Hawaiian", but you have to prove a certain blood quantum amount (getting less and less every year) to get any actual money from a huge private account set up by the missionaries to "help" the native Hawaiian. On the reservations there is also a big debate due to the gambling casinos, how "indian" do you have to be to get the profits from the casinos? But I digress. I think here most people would call my kids turkish, but it hasn't really come up.

I think you can comment all you want on racism in Turkey, so long as you are somewhat involved in the cause (and you obviously are) I don't think you have to be a member of the minority goup whose cause you are championing. But I know some people would disagree. But I think it's good to have a variety of types of people looking at your problem (whatever it is) and proposing solutions.

And, on some levels race is a scientific fallacy, but how to explain genetic differences? Like Asian people have twins more often than European people? African people are more prone to sickle cell animea (I think?) than other "ethnic" groups, And even if race is a fallacy, culture is not, and openly discussing the differnces between the culture you were raised in and the culture you live in, even if you have some annoying days, I don't think counts as racism.
As far as my kids are concerned, if the american teachers said that they had been taught not to do anything unless they were forced to do it, I would totally agree! I really don't think me saying that I don't like a lot of things about the Turkish education system counts as racism. I also don't like my mother in laws cooking, but so what?

I think racism, or racist behavior, means that there is one "in group" w/ the majority of power (economic, cultural, social, lingustic -work like me, act like me, dress like me, talk like me) and the in group, consciously or not, spends a lot of time and energy making sure the "out group/s" stay out.
I fail to see how me complaining on this forum about people (turks, it's true, since I live here and not in China) want free lessons or have old fashioned ideas about education (Go stand on one foot in the corner until I say you can sit down!) means that I am making racist comments
I do think Turks need to make some serious changes to many of thier school policies, but so do many Turks, so is this racist?[/quote]

[tvik]

black people run faster than white people.
simple fact.
anyways i don't hate black people, i've slept with several of them.
they're also better in bed

[hobo]

Thank you justme.
Tekirdag, I don't agree. I posted the way I did for very specific reasons, related to the ease with which there was a jumping on the bandwagon of racist commentary. If that invokes the sort of responses it did (and continues to do) because people choose to interpret my comments in particular ways, so be it. There's not much I can do about that.
Almuze, just because one likes something doesn't mean automatically that one cannot be racist; some women say they prefer black men because they argue they have big dicks - would you say that was a racist comment?
Much of what else you refer to I agree with, but I would argue that you are comparing apples and pears. I reiterate; it's not that all the posts were racist, but that these kinds of sentiments are easily fomented into the kinds of posts that are offensive. For example, you are of course entitled to complain about the invasion of your privacy by individuals wanting free lessons, but if this then turns into a discussion about how 'they' don't see it as wrong, the implication being that they don't do so because somehow their moral character is not quite up to par, then I see this as offensive and racist. Others may not find it so, or view it as racist, but I do, and I stand by my right to say so.
I think it's very telling, though, that almost everyone who has responded feels the need to resort to ad hominem attacks, while only one person has said, actually yes, making comments regarding Turks' inability to do things unless forced to is, in fact, racist.
I'm not very much interested in being insulted for holding views that differ from some others', so I�m definitely going to take my "colourful" arguments elsewhere. But I am open to discussing this civilly, if anyone would like to continue to do so by PM.

[almuze]

opps, sorry for the loooong post! I got way to carried away talking about social contructions of reality/identity/race, sorry. I'll get back to my colouring print outs now.