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Incredible Ape
Joined: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 118
Location: Witness Protection Programme
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 Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| CWG: I agree that people should research the employment law before taking a job, so a big thank you to Teach2005 for making it easier for others to avoid the pitfalls. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:26 am Post subject: |
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| Incredible Ape wrote: |
| CWG: I agree that people should research the employment law before taking a job, so a big thank you to Teach2005 for making it easier for others to avoid the pitfalls. |
Agreed. Teach2005's post here has raised the issue of the importance of doing research before you arrive and ensuring that you take a legal position free of the worries mentioned in his or her post. |
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Union Jack
Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 15
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| I also think that Teach 2005's comments help to highlight some of the business practices and the value that is placed on foreign employees. Please note that this is from one of the biggest chain schools in Taiwan. So all beware of what can happen and does happen in some schools. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:18 am Post subject: |
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Clark wrote,
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I think that everyone would agree with you on this.
For a school to suggest that a position is fully legal when it isn't is clearly wrong. I know that in some cases the school legitimately doesn't know the legalities or rather illegalities, but that is their problem not the teachers. If a school is going to employ a foreigner then they should make it their business to familiarize themselves with relevant laws.
Equally, teachers should do the same.
From my point of view the OP's post should be seen more as a warning about not researching work in Taiwan, than a warning against Kojen. |
Clark, I agree with you that if someone is going to go overseas and teach that they should do some research. If they don't then they are just foolish. One of the problems in regard to this situation whether right or wrong (I will not pass judgement about it) is that I think that most people who teach think that if a school is going to employ them they will do so legally. I don't think that most westerners could fathom that a government school would employ someone illegally. That is why I think that some teachers are tricked.
Actually, Taiwan is an amazing phenomenon. Look at the ALV summer camp that I was talking about before. It employs many people illegally every summer. If you went and worked there you might think they are doing it legally. I mean they even provide teachers for the Military Academy in Taiwan. I mean even government schools employ illegal teachers. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:29 am Post subject: |
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Are you talking about a situation where a teacher accepts a position on the promise that it is a legal position, only to find out later that it isn't and the teacher had no way of knowing this?
If you are then you are just re-enforcing what I stated above in my earlier post. Every teacher here would have sympathy for any other teacher who was promised a legal position only to find out later that it wasn't so. This is a clear case of the wrong against the wronged.
If on the other hand you are talking about positions in kindergartens then this begs the question - what responsibility do you think teachers have to themselves in researching work in Taiwan? |
Clark, I guess if we conclude that those inoccent teachers should be left off without any blame then we should let accountants off who cook the books and don't know any better. What if I went to work for Enron, which seemed like a perfectly reputable company and then they asked me to change some figures for them? What if they said it was ok and that it resulted in some people being cheated out of their savings? Should I be left off without punishment because the bosses at my job told me it was OK!!!!! |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| One of the problems in regard to this situation whether right or wrong (I will not pass judgement about it) is that I think that most people who teach think that if a school is going to employ them they will do so legally. I don't think that most westerners could fathom that a government school would employ someone illegally. That is why I think that some teachers are tricked. |
I agree with you entirely, and I think that the government school situation is a perfect example. We all know that back home that government schools pretty well do things by the book, and that you can be sure that what they do is within the bounds of the law. Of course in choosing where might be the safest place to work, prospective teachers may automatically assume that working for a government school is likely to be the safest option. I can certainly understand this and agree with you that this is what happens.
| JZer wrote: |
| Clark, I guess if we conclude that those inoccent teachers should be left off without any blame then we should let accountants off who cook the books and don't know any better. What if I went to work for Enron, which seemed like a perfectly reputable company and then they asked me to change some figures for them? What if they said it was ok and that it resulted in some people being cheated out of their savings? Should I be left off without punishment because the bosses at my job told me it was OK!!!!! |
I am not sure that I agree that this is a relevant analogy.
Firstly, while from a purely legal point of view ignorance is no defense from the law, unknowingly committing a crime is certainly seen as a valid mitigating factor. In your analogy above you are really talking about accountants who might join a company and then get asked to break the law. They know that they will breaking the law, and chose to through a feeling of misplaced loyalty to the company, through fear of repercussions, or through their individual greed. Whichever it is, they all result from choice to break a law that they know exists.
The cases of innocent teachers that I am talking about involve cases where a teacher knows the law, and has done everything they can possibly to do abide by the law. The cases where a teacher comes to Taiwan with the promise of a work permit and ARC only for this to be delayed repeatedly and never materialize. This is different from your analogy above as the teachers intent was to abide by the law, but their employer prevented them from doing so. So in this case, the teacher had no power through which to act legally, and the choice was quite simply not available. In your analogy there would no doubt be a huge pressure placed on the accountant to do what the boss was instructing him to do, but at the end of the day that accountant would have the choice of right or wrong.
In answer to your question, no you should not be let off without punishment if you knew what you were doing was wrong no matter the reason, nor if you failed to know that what you were doing was wrong when you could have known this. But you should not be punished if you had done everything in your power to abide by the law but were prevented from doing so by the lies of your employer.
Fortunately, while some foreign teachers do get themselves into messes in Taiwan, it is only those who have clearly broken the law with intent that get punished for this. This is borne out by the fact that only teachers working without an ARC are deported. |
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Union Jack
Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 15
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:20 pm Post subject: Teacha |
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I was just wondering if the situation at Kojen has changed or if it is still very much the same since Teacha's posting.
Any comments |
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Union Jack
Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 15
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:25 pm Post subject: Teach2005 not Teacha |
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| should read teach2005. Sorry for the confusion. |
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