Job Discussion Forums

[Mark]

[Mark]

[Chris21]

As was said, the reason why they score so poorly on these tests, is because everyone takes them. If as many people took them in Taiwan and S. Korea as they do in Japan, then they'd score lower too. From the data that I've seen, Taiwan and S. Korea only score about 10-20 points higher on the TOEFL (on average).

More Japanese go abroad too, which would explain why there are more of them in lower levels. Of course there are problems in the Japanese system, but I'd bet there are problems in every system. A quick visit to other forums shows that expat teachers in other countries have complaints about how education is conducted. I think it's unfair to say that the Japanese are the worst at learning English because students at a Technical College and bored housewives are dragging the national average down.

[Mark]

[Chris21]

The score difference between Japan and S. Korea on standardized tests is getting bigger, Korea will blow the Japanese out of the water in 10 years, Japanese are scarce in upper level English courses abroad...

I guess we just have a fundamental disgreement on these points. I do think Japan has some serious flaws in their English education policy, but I also realize that every situation is complex, making it difficult to compare how language is taught in Japan versus Korea, Hong Kong, Chile, and Sweden. Japan does invest more into English than many of these places, and the system is flawed, but it also faces different challenges (for example, student motivation to learn English, ethnolinguistic vitality, whether it's an EFL/ESL context, colonial history, language families, etc). I think it's important to consider these things before condemning a country, as well as to realize that change (especially in Japan) occurs incrementally. Despite the horror stories, I think the JET program, as well as gradual reform towards more communicative testing (like the new speaking component of the TOEIC), are very positive things.

And, disagreeing with you on an internet discussion board, where it is difficult to articulate a nuanced argument, is no reason to assume that I don't have an ESL/EFL background or education.

[Mark]

[Chris21]

I agree that Japan is investing a lot of time and effort for what appears to be mediocre results. I think that one of the major problem is that the government has made English mandatory for everyone in all schools. The result being that the poor students go through 6 years of schooling and don't learn anything, while the good students are held back because classes have to be kept at an appropriate level for the poor students. Then everyone has to take TOEFL and other standardized tests, and it's not surprising that scores are lower than neighboring Asian countries. Statistics are often held up by everyone from administrators to newly-arrived eikaiwa teachers to decry the educational system. Yet, stats can be extremely misleading. Many critics of the system don't realize that sample size and other factors can have a HUGE impact upon how those statistics should be interpreted.

It seems that when newbies (not you) come to Japan, many offer blanket criticisms, like the whole system is "shite" and completely unsuccessful... it's become a cliche. Many of the critics that label Japan as the worst in Asia, don't consider the issue with much depth. I haven't seen historical statistics, but I would guess that the number of excellent English speakers in Japan has improved over the years, and I think it'll keep improving. The introduction of the JET program into elementary schools, the revision of many university entrance examinations, and greater support for newer teaching philosophies like communicative teaching, cooperative learning, and extensive reading will help.

As a Canadian, I had to study French for as long as many Japanese study English. And even though French is much easier to learn for an English speaker than English would be for a Japanese speaker, I can hardly speak a word. That suggests to me that Japan isn't the only country that has failed in some regards of language teaching (and Canada is often characterized as having one of the best language education policies).

I think we might be arguing the same point though, just from different angles... glass is 90% empty vs. glass is 10% full (although maybe I think the glass is a little fuller than 10%).