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Gregor · Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 842 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

This is not meant to be a rhetorical question.
I was just wondering if there is any government that accepts a DELTA or a Trinity College, London TESOL diploma as the qualification to teach that it is meant to be.

I'm just curious. I got the Chinese government (in Dalian, Liaoning) to recognize it more or less. But I'm not entirely sure that the Chinese government accepts it as a rule.
The Viet Nam government has a document that states,
"5/ Copies of certificates of professional expertise and skills of the foreigner, comprising university graduation degree or equivalent higher certificate, or certificate of level of skills of the foreigner issued by the body authorised under the laws of such country."
(The emphasis is mine, of course.)

And yet, they are balking at my Trinity College, London diploma. Now, I'm not too worried about this. I just won't go to Viet Nam if they (meaning the employer) can't work it out.
But I'm curious. Is it the bad-ass document it is meant to be? Any diploma holders out there have a good experience with this?

tedkarma · Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:11 am Post subject:

Only my opinion - and I suspect it will anger many people - the DELTA is NOT equivalent to a graduate degree that the sales people who hype it would like it to be - certainly not in Asian anyway.

Please don't forget that Cambridge is one big marketing machine. Don't get me wrong I have three Cambrige certifications myself - but it IS a business first and foremost.

movinaround · Joined: 08 Jun 2006 Posts: 202

The Great Toad · Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:27 am Post subject:

I was thinking Sapin would be nice...

http://www.tesolonline.com/4week-course.html

However I do not know what the 4 week TESOL degree is... is it a Trinity or a Cambrige...? I can not tell maybe it is a defferent education Cert?

Anyone went to Spain and did this one? It is 300-400 Euros for rent. I guess that is for one month. The actual course is 1,590 US. Not bad if you can get a better job from it.

Many of the Japan / Arab / and even Latin American Jobs want you to have this. Or you can make 2,200 dollars in Korea with a 4 year BS in Monkey Bussiness at a Hawkone...

Gregor · Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 842 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

The Great Toad wrote:

teacheringreece · Joined: 05 Feb 2005 Posts: 79

Wrong I'm afraid. The British government doesn't recognise the DELTA as an ESOL (and in the UK ESOL refers to teaching refugess/immigrants etc., as opposed to EFL) qualification unless you also take an extension module. The thinking is that it is a high level teaching qualification, but because it is an EFL qualification a DELTA holder is therefore not an ESOL subject specialist and isn't qualified to teach ESOL. There are no government administered EFL courses in the UK, so the DELTA without the extension module is kind of irrelevant to the official frameworks regarding teaching qualifications.

This is one of the big things that puts me off doing the diploma - it's a lot of money but counts for nothing if you ever leave ELT. If you have an MA in TESOL or similar then at least you've got a respected postgraduate qualification no matter what field you're planning on working in in the future. But a diploma is just a diploma - it's not inherently worth anymore than a diploma in first aid.

Will. · Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 783 Location: London Uk

It should be mentioned also that the MA TEFL/TESOL/APP LING not having a teaching component carries less weight than one that does. The DELTA/ Dip TESOL has a teaching component but does not carry the same weight as an MA.
Why not try boith. I did I learned a lot from both courses and work in both fields

Gregor · Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 842 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

I understand the business about not having a more broad ranging degree as opposed to a diploma.
What I'm saying is that a diploma should count for the job it's meant to count for, itself. I don't particularly want to leave TESOL or go back to living and working in my own country. I just want foreign countries to accept the Trinity Diploma (and the DELTA) for what the issuing institutions mean for it to count for...and the British Council does.
I don't know what all this about extension modules and so on are about. But anyone who says that TESOL in countries where English isn't spoken as a native or official language SHOULD require an MA and/or irrelevant degrees in electrical engineering and so on is rather ignoring the fact that those degrees cost a whole lot more than almost any TEFL job in a Third World country is likely to ever pay.
This is why we HAVE TEFL certificates and CELTAs and DELTAs and so on. Those are much more reasonable qualifications for the jobs, don't you agree?
I mean, how can you argue that what many of you refer to as a McJob or McESL or McEF should require a master's degree?? I would be willing to bet the farm that the General Manager at a McDonald's restaurant does not hold an MBA or any other sort of M.
So why should a DoS at an EF? I mean, if it's the same thing as so many of you say, then what sense does that make?
It makes none at all. This is exactly what the CELTA and DELTA and so on were created for. I accept this. Most employers of this sort do as well.
MY argument is that there must be SOME way for SOMEONE to convince governments that this is true. Until then, governments are doing a serious disservice to their own citizens' abilities to do business. I mean, they allow EF franchises and then refuse to allow them to hire qualified* teachers. What sense does that make?

(* By "qualified" I mean based on what these schools require of their teachers, not what Y'ALL think makes for the best teacher possible. "Qualified" means "qualified based on what the company itself requires," which in the case of a franchise operation is generally a CELTA type thing, and for DoSes, a DELTA or equivalent.)

Some sort of International TEFL organization (or maybe the British Council?) ought to hire me to go around making these cases for governments around the world. Smile

ls650 · Joined: 10 May 2003 Posts: 3484 Location: British Columbia

Gregor · Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 842 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

Is650 wrote:

Stephen Jones · Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124

I am afraid Gregor, that the reason you are having difficulties persuading governments of the worth of the DELTA is that they are right and you are wrong.

First, there is no requirement to have a bachelors degree before you take it. You can't really call it a post-graduate qualification when in fact it is also a pre-graduate one. You can also get MAs without a BA (UK universities are notorious for just taking your money) but you will still have problems, and at least the MA are accredited university qualifications.

Incidetentally, some insititutions, such as Sheffield Hallam, allow you to take the DELTA as part of the studies for the MA; it appears that a DELTA is considred around a third to a half of a one year MA.

Gregor · Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 842 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

Stephen Jones wrote:

Gregor · Joined: 06 Jan 2005 Posts: 842 Location: Jakarta, Indonesia

Re-examining my last post, it comes off as a bit over-defensive. And anyone who gets that defensive, well, maybe they protest a bit too much...?
I suppose, but notice that I didn't edit or delete the post because, as sarcastic as it may be, it was in response to what I consider to be an ignorant post. Well, here is some outside corroboration to earlier statements (e.g. that the diploma is equivalent to a master's degree, in England, and that it should stand by itself as a qualification):

http://www.trinitycollege.co.uk/site/?id=202
This is Trinity College's own site, saying what they reckon their diploma is.
And:

http://www.qca.org.uk/493_15773.html
This is what the British QCA says about what Trinity says about the TESOL diploma.
One more:

http://www.openquals.org.uk/openquals/qualificationList.aspx
This is to prove that the LTCL diploma in TESOL of which I speak is, in fact, graded at level 7.

And with that, I'll rest my case.
Except to ask - am I misunderstanding these things?

Stephen Jones · Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124

You've posted links to the QCA site before. The fact remains that a DELTA is not a masters, the amount of study required is only a third of that required for a masters, and you do not need to have a first degree to get a DELTA.

A useful comparison is to the large number of trade qualifications in the computing world; Microsoft, Cisco, Oralce or Java qualifications are not the same as a degree in software engineering or computer science, whatever their other uses.

Gordon · Joined: 28 Jan 2003 Posts: 5309 Location: Japan

I also think a DELTA does not equal a Masters. A masters usually takes 2 years and a Delta can be done in less than 6 months. However, they each have a purpose. Usually, a masters is more theoretical and a Delta more practical. It depends in what capacity you plan to teach, one is not better than the other, just different.