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Khyron
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 291
Location: Tokyo Metro City
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 Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| ntropy wrote: |
I was a JET in the second year of the program back in the day.
An American girl did a runner literally 6 hours after arriving. There were over 1000 Westerners gathered in the very-upscale Keio Plaza with every Western amenity and she still freaked. Took a taxi to the airport and was not heard from again. What did she imagine it would be like? Kansas? |
Wow.
I heard of one girl who arrived in Incheon airport (in Korea), freaked, and immediately bought a ticket for the next plane back to her home country. She didn't even leave the airport. Crazy... (I don't remember where I heard that from, but it sounds possible enough).
Honestly though, I cannot imagine any situation in Japan where doing a runner in Japan could be justified. Having lived in Korea before, I completely understand how someone could be justified in doing a runner there. As someone has pointed out in this thread already, your boss in Korea basically owns your visa. They have a lot of control over you. That, along with a criminal for a boss, can mean disaster. The work visa situation that Korea has is absolutely terrible and in dire need of reform. |
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mrjohndub
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 198
Location: Saitama, Japan
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| Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Big John Stud wrote: |
| Japanese labour law states that a company must pay an ex-employee in full one week after the final working day. |
I don't disbelieve your comment, but I was wondering if you could substantiate this with some sort of reference...a link or something would be very helpful. Thank you... |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Khyron wrote: |
| I cannot imagine any situation in Japan where doing a runner in Japan could be justified. |
| womblingfree wrote: |
| if your company is breaking basic Japanese labour law by refusing to join Shakai Hoken, by making you work too many hours, by instigating illegal outsourcing contracts, railroading you with bullying tactics, and any other number of shady things, then the teacher is perfectly within their rights to walk out without giving a moments notice. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
| if your company is breaking basic Japanese labour law by refusing to join Shakai Hoken, by making you work too many hours, by instigating illegal outsourcing contracts, railroading you with bullying tactics, and any other number of shady things, then the teacher is perfectly within their rights to walk out without giving a moments notice. |
Wombling free, I dont know where you get these chestnuts. Do you make them up all by yourself?
Walking out on your contract not only inconveniences your students but it means you are in violation of the terms of your contract and you give your employer an excuse to say that foreign employees are unreliable, immature, flakey and irresponsible and can't be trusted. He can fine you and technically he can lose business because you dont teach your classes. he can sue for compensation or take it out of your salary for lost income.
If your employer has made contract violations you negotiate with them via a union or take labor action e.g a strike, not by unilaterally taking the law into your own hands. You seem to continually misrepresent the facts and misinform people.
Under japanese law you have to give notice stated in your contract or they have to pay you severance pay if they dismiss. Just downing tools and walking out makes YOU the bad guy and favorite whipping boy of employers. Dont give them any more reason to treat you like scum than they have to.
One last point.
I would make sure that before you do a runner on your employer just to get back at him you have a job lined up to replace it with. Disappear from your job and it may take you a month to find a new job and maybe 2 months before you see a paycheck.
Not only do you risk kissing goodbye to all or any unpaid salary your boss owes you you will bleed for cash until you see another paycheck, in the hundreds of thousands of yen. Believe you me it will hurt you harder than him, as he will simply get other teachers to teach your classes or hire substitute teachers, juggle the schedule while you are out looking for another job.
The shakai hoken thing is often a red herring as on paper they are supposed to pay for it but in practice you are an independent contractor, not a full time employee and its cheaper to pay you less wages or keep you on 3 month contracts to make you easily replaceable.
You only need to look at what NOVA did to see how offside it got with non-union employees by making them pay into Shakai Hoken. even then NOVA still lost money.
Have you thought about what happens when you go and ask for a letter of release from sponsorship and he tells you to take a flying leap?
Its obvious you havent thought these things through and you have a propensity to tell people to burn their bridges with employers when thats the last thing they should be doing.
Last edited by PAULH on Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:05 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Cshannon
Joined: 10 Dec 2004
Posts: 114
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:30 am Post subject: |
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womblingfree -- why would you want to just walk out even if you were getting screwed over like how you described? How does your boss "make" you work too many hours? - why not simply refuse to work more than what's in your contract? I can see refusing to work until you've gotten paid or whatever (or threatening to quit), but just walking out without any notice seems really immature and weak.
If a push really came to shove, personally I'd suggest raising hell or demanding to get paid what I've earned etc. Putting up any kind of a fight will get you a lot further than just running away. And taking such a petty so-called 'revenge' against your boss by suddenly disappearing will just discredit you and more than likely hurt you more than him in the long run. |
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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:07 am Post subject: |
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Paulh, I know you mean well and what you write is always the exact veiw of the law, but employers in Japan are no longer paying much attention to the laws. I'm not talking about the big companies which face government scrutiny or universities and public schools which are afraid of bad press, but rather the smaller dispatch companies and eikaiwas that are out to make as much money as possible in the shortest time possible. These companies routinely break Japanese labor laws because they know that the teeth of the government when it comes to foreigner working rights are less than sharp.
These companies fire people for union activities or more likely don't renew contracts. They misrepresent working conditions. They change contracts unilaterally under clauses which say things like, "The employee must follow all instructions of the company." - Actually, if such a contract change happens the employee is completely within his/her right to walk out the door on the spot. They don't pay the final month's wages. They have excessive financial penalties in the contracts. They don't pay the thirty days salary required for immediate dismissal.
Certainly, there are a lot of flakey foreign workers in Japan, and there is a growing level of distrust between companies and foreign workers. However, it is unfair to place the majority of the blame on the foreign workers. Companies act in their best interest, and so should workers. Economic realities and just laws will work out a natural equilibrium. As it is now the bias is already toward the Japanese, so there is no need for foreigners to futher tilt public sway. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| guest of Japan wrote: |
Paulh, I know you mean well and what you write is always the exact veiw of the law, but employers in Japan are no longer paying much attention to the laws. I'm not talking about the big companies which face government scrutiny or universities and public schools which are afraid of bad press, but rather the smaller dispatch companies and eikaiwas that are out to make as much money as possible in the shortest time possible. These companies routinely break Japanese labor laws because they know that the teeth of the government when it comes to foreigner working rights are less than sharp.
These companies fire people for union activities or more likely don't renew contracts. They misrepresent working conditions. They change contracts unilaterally under clauses which say things like, "The employee must follow all instructions of the company." - Actually, if such a contract change happens the employee is completely within his/her right to walk out the door on the spot. They don't pay the final month's wages. They have excessive financial penalties in the contracts. They don't pay the thirty days salary required for immediate dismissal.
Certainly, there are a lot of flakey foreign workers in Japan, and there is a growing level of distrust between companies and foreign workers. However, it is unfair to place the majority of the blame on the foreign workers. Companies act in their best interest, and so should workers. Economic realities and just laws will work out a natural equilibrium. As it is now the bias is already toward the Japanese, so there is no need for foreigners to futher tilt public sway. |
This really begs the question of why employees will agree to work for employers who routinely sh-it on them.
I'm a bit out of the loop on this one and Ive had a mail from someone in Tokyo looking for work and all these see are these predatory dispatch companies.
These arguments have been flogged to death on these forums. A newbie arrives in the country, doesnt want to make waves and doesnt want to join a union or become militant for fear of losing his job. Doesn want to run to a union until such contract violations occur and they wonder what hit them. they think unions are for other people not them, and then find they dont have a leg to stand on legally with these dispatch companies.
OK I dont have any pat answers for you. What it takes is for people to band together, to refuse to work for such companies (the only reason they are in business is they have people willing to work for peanuts and overlook blatant illegalities in return for a salary.
Such things as changes in mid-contract are illegal without the employees permission. its only because teachers here are living on the economic fringe, usually have no more than one or two paychecks in reserve that they wont make waves and put up with such BS.
They dont speak the language dont know where to turn for help, so do what they know best, quit in a temperamental fit. leading employers to simply reinforce their belief that foreigners are flakey.
What Japan needs is more assertiveness on the part of foreigners to not accept such substandard conditions in the work place and stand up for their legal rights. whats going on here is no more than legitimised slavery and the employer knows you are not going to fight back. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| PAULH wrote: |
| womblingfree wrote: |
| if your company is breaking basic Japanese labour law by refusing to join Shakai Hoken, by making you work too many hours, by instigating illegal outsourcing contracts, railroading you with bullying tactics, and any other number of shady things, then the teacher is perfectly within their rights to walk out without giving a moments notice. |
Wombling free, I dont know where you get these chestnuts. Do you make them up all by yourself?
Walking out on your contract not only inconveniences your students but it means you are in violation of the terms of your contract and you give your employer an excuse to say that foreign employees are unreliable, immature, flakey and irresponsible and can't be trusted. He can fine you and technically he can lose business because you dont teach your classes. he can sue for compensation or take it out of your salary for lost income. |
I got these chestnuts from the Foreign Workers Handbook 2002, issued by the government.
If someone is being employed illegally why on earth should they trust that same employer to treat them with respect when leaving that contract early? The contract is rendered all but meaningless if you are working for a law breaker.
Unscrupulous employers will use the excuse that 'oh, but think of the students!' They should have thought of that before deciding to take advantage of foreign workers.
I'm not talking about walking out on a job you don't enjoy here! |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| guest of Japan wrote: |
| P - Actually, if such a contract change happens the employee is completely within his/her right to walk out the door on the spot. They don't pay the final month's wages. They have excessive financial penalties in the contracts. They don't pay the thirty days salary required for immediate dismissal |
If contract terms are different they are entitled to be flown back to their home country, paid for by their employers. However this is moot when you choose to remain in Japan.
The Japanese labor laws are actually color blind, the only difference is most employees here choose to quit, cut and run rather than stand up and fight for their jobs. That said, contract renewals are a fact of life, something I have to deal with on a regular basis.
Employers are required to pay ones final wages, they can not withhold salary but its because employees dont belong to a union and have little negotiating power that they experience little in the way of sway over their employers.
| Quote: |
| Certainly, there are a lot of flakey foreign workers in Japan, and there is a growing level of distrust between companies and foreign workers. However, it is unfair to place the majority of the blame on the foreign workers. Companies act in their best interest, and so should workers. Economic realities and just laws will work out a natural equilibrium. As it is now the bias is already toward the Japanese, so there is no need for foreigners to futher tilt public sway. |
Not all employees are flakes just like not all employers are out to rip you off. I still believe that you have certain inalienable rights, such as the right to be paid for your work, the right to a harassment free work place, the right to not be bullied and intimidated or suffer sexual harassment. The right to not be levied onerous or arbiitrary fines.
Maybe Im being naive here, but maybe its simply the fact that most foreigners here are short term casual laborer, see no need to join a union or stand up for themselves that these problems keep occurring.
Does simply walking out on your employer solve anything? probably not. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| PAULH wrote: |
This really begs the question of why employees will agree to work for employers who routinely sh-it on them.
I'm a bit out of the loop on this one and Ive had a mail from someone in Tokyo looking for work and all these see are these predatory dispatch companies. |
If an employer is regularly sh-it-ing on you by unlawful means then you have every right to walk.
No one goes into a new position thinking, 'hey this guys really going to screw me over'. This will probably not become apparent until time has elapsed.
Here's an example:
My friend started working for a new dispatch company. The company claimed it provided health insurance, but did not enroll in shakai hoken. Not ideal but the guy took the job.
After a few months the teacher realised that there was in fact no health insurance in place whatsoever. What should the teacher do? In this case he got his own travel insurance and saw out the one year contract.
After nine months the school was pleased with him and decided to renew the contract. The teacher said to the dispatch company that he would not do so unless health insurance was forthcoming. The company informed him that all teachers would be enrolled in shakai hoken at the beginning of their new contracts.
On the day of signing the new contract (classes started the following week, schools often leave it until the last minute for contract renewals.) he was informed that neither he, nor any other member of staff, would be enrolled in shakai hoken, private health care and that even the pitiful 'accident' insurance that was in place would be withdrawn.
The teacher was furious, but had no time to find another job. The dispatch company had lied so that he would not look for other employment and so keep the school happy.
The teacher voiced his displeasure, called the union and checked with the local ward office who read the contract and said it was completely unenforcable for a number of reasons, non provision of health insurance being only one. A new job was found and the teacher walked out with 1 days notice, knowing that he would not be paid if he gave a reasonable amount of notice.
He is still in touch with the teachers at his old school. Some were angry but the majority not only understood but actually gave him references. Japanese teachers are fully aware of the scams going on between schools and dispatch companies and most are members of their own union (which foreign teachers can't join as they are classed as part-time, even though they often do a 40+ hour week). The students were perplexed as to where their teacher had gone, but in reality this just translates into exciting playground gossip. Perhaps a few shed tears, but a new teacher will dry them up.
So then what would you have done in this situation?
Last edited by womblingfree on Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:09 am; edited 2 times in total |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
| If someone is being employed illegally why on earth should they trust that same employer to treat them with respect when leaving that contract early? The contract is rendered all but meaningless if you are working for a law breaker. |
If you know the employer is employing you illegally then why do you work for them? Doesnt that make you an accessory? No you cant trust an employer that willingly flouts laws as you dont know what else they will do. Thats why you have unions.
| Quote: |
| Unscrupulous employers will use the excuse that 'oh, but think of the students!' They should have thought of that before deciding to take advantage of foreign workers. |
That excuse was used on Ritsumeikan teachers when we all went out on strike, however it was the school that was actually breaking laws. If students know that what the school is doing is illegal then most likely they will back you. Students at Ritsumeikan who supported striking teachers exceeded about 60% Im told, once they were apprised of the facts. Students arent stupid, Though Im sure this may be harder if you are an ALT at a JHS. Rits for example did massive flyer campaigns at local train stations and handed out flyers to passing students. Such campaigns DO work.
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| I'm not talking about walking out on a job you don't enjoy here! |
Then what kind of job are you talking about? I assume if you are getting harassed you dont enjoy it? |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:02 am Post subject: |
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| PAULH wrote: |
| womblingfree wrote: |
| If someone is being employed illegally why on earth should they trust that same employer to treat them with respect when leaving that contract early? The contract is rendered all but meaningless if you are working for a law breaker. |
If you know the employer is employing you illegally then why do you work for them? Doesnt that make you an accessory? |
You don't know, you're often fed a pack of lies. See above.
| PAULH wrote: |
| womblingfree wrote: |
| I'm not talking about walking out on a job you don't enjoy here! |
Then what kind of job are you talking about? I assume if you are getting harassed you dont enjoy it? |
There's no excuse to walk out on a job simply because you don't like it.
Conversely you could also be working for a school you love but being employed by a company which is a veritable vipers nest of con-men. Not that they would announce the fact at your job interview though. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| Cshannon wrote: |
| I'd suggest raising hell or demanding to get paid what I've earned etc. Putting up any kind of a fight will get you a lot further than just running away...taking such a petty so-called 'revenge' against your boss by suddenly disappearing will just discredit you and more than likely hurt you more than him in the long run. |
It will more than likely enable you to leave on your own terms rather than allow yourself to be taken advantage of. This is not petty revenge, it is making sure you are in a secure position.
Why would you announce your departure only to let an unscrupulous employer manipulate the situation and possibly cause you financial hardship.
As for raising hell, unless you are a member of a union then you might as well just pull your trousers round your ankles and whistle dixie
Last edited by womblingfree on Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
| Conversely you could also be working for a school you love but being employed by a company which is a veritable vipers nest of con-men. Not that they would announce the fact at your job interview though. |
You dont work for a school that you love, you work for your employer. You may work at a school location but they are not your employers.
essentially you are a temp paid to go in and teach classes at a high school. Maybe its that you are becoming emotionally attached to your students and forgetting its your boss paying your wages.
You wouldnt work at a school for free and you have to wonder if the salary is worth the aggravation.
What I usually tell people is to ignore the illegal clauses as the employer can not enforce them and you can oppose frivolous work rules. perhaps its becuase teachers sign three month contracts that they grant themselves a short shelf-life and built in redundancy. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| PAULH wrote: |
| womblingfree wrote: |
| Conversely you could also be working for a school you love but being employed by a company which is a veritable vipers nest of con-men. Not that they would announce the fact at your job interview though. |
You dont work for a school that you love, you work for your employer. You may work at a school location but they are not your employers. |
You know what I mean Working at a school you love and for a bunch of cowboys.
Last edited by womblingfree on Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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