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cabbagehead
Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 46
Location: Japan
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 Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:52 am Post subject: Discrimination? |
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| Asking for a photograph on applications is not illegal, but it is if it's used as discrimination, as many institutions are doing. |
Discrimination, hmmm that's interesting. Is it discrimination for schools to turn people down on the basis of their looks? Somewhere else on this forum someone said that EFL was all about marketing. If so, looks could be as relevant as qualifications.
If as DoS you have a position to fill and you turn down someone who does not fit the bill, are you guilty of discrimination?
Once, I heard of a Christian school advertising for a Christian teacher and getting horrendous emails from people responding to the ad to say how discriminatory they were. One person applied saying she was a Muslim  . Obviously, they turned her down. Discrimination?
So, to what extent is there, or not, discrimination in EFL hiring around the world? |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 4:30 am Post subject: |
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and then, discrimination is alive and well, and will never cease to exist.
There is a "positive" kind of discrimination. First of all, "discrimination" means nothing more sinister than "marking the boundaries" or "establishing an identity", that is, to categorise. For those on the inside this is good, for the rest it means being disadvantaged.
You can even say that requiring TEFLers to be certified and qualified is "discrimination". It is, and then again, it is not because it is in the well-defined interests of many non-teachers themselves, the students for example.
Religion is a membership in an exclusive club. They have every reason and right to sort chaff out.
I can't understand why it has been declared illegal for advertisers to specify the gender in some professions (in some countries anyway).
Race? There are jobs that evidently are better filled by members of certain ethnic groups. A social worker may be judged by his or her clientele according to his own skin colour and potential linguistic equipment.
This need not be a step in affirmative action - which, as many claim, has boomeranged into a new form of ostracism. Just hearing complaints from racial minorities in Hong Kong, you get the feeling that if the social services had more Nepalese, Indian and Pakistani staff a lot of demoralising pressure would come off poor second-generation South Asian immigrant descendants.
Pictures in your job applications - why, that's so common here. Maybe they are looking for Barbie and Ken, so what? We are not being taken seriously in our capacity as teachers. We are white flesh (or brown sometimes, not to mention red, yellow and black).
Before the Internet came here, your best bet was to go for a person-to-person interview. Tell me: do you believe your face had no selling point then? |
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Psy
Joined: 12 Sep 2003
Posts: 10
Location: Peace Bridge
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| Discrimination, hmmm that's interesting. Is it discrimination for schools to turn people down on the basis of their looks? |
Yes, that would be the definition of discrimination.
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| Somewhere else on this forum someone said that EFL was all about marketing. If so, looks could be as relevant as qualifications. |
I agree, but what other teaching job in the world has physical appearance as a qualification?
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| If as DoS you have a position to fill and you turn down someone who does not fit the bill, are you guilty of discrimination? |
Yes, if you do this on the basis of race, ethnicity, religion, beliefs, etc.
No, if you do this on the basis of qualifications.
I understand I contradict myself by stating physical appearance as a qualification, but I am answering this from a Westerner's point of view.
If I was DoS native to that country, obviously I would not believe I was acting discriminatory.
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| Once, I heard of a Christian school advertising for a Christian teacher and getting horrendous emails from people responding to the ad to say how discriminatory they were. One person applied saying she was a Muslim . Obviously, they turned her down. Discrimination? |
Yes.
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| So, to what extent is there, or not, discrimination in EFL hiring around the world? |
There is a great extent of discrimination in hiring, especially in EFL. It is probably one of the most discriminatory occupations in the world.
I realize now that discrimination is NOT illegal (at least in most parts of the "EFL" world), but wrong nonetheless. And realize that natives are discriminatory to each other and neighbors as well. Koreans hate the Japanese, Malays hate the Chinese, Palestinians hate the Israelis, Americans hate the French, I hate you, You hate me, etc. 
Here's a personal story that you might find interesting.
http://www.eslcafe.com/jobinfo/asia/sefer.cgi?display:1058386242-7311.txt
Thanks for reading my ranting. |
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Wolf
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 1245
Location: Middle Earth
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| Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| Roger wrote: |
Pictures in your job applications - why, that's so common here. Maybe they are looking for Barbie and Ken, so what? |
Refusing to hire an otherwise qualified person on basis of "race" is discrimination. That's what. I don't think I have to clarify what I mean by that. If it was okey-dokey hunky dorey, why do the DoS's who post here feel bad when pressure from their schools' owners/parents force them to reject applicants based on race? Why do the Kyopos in Korea complain rather than say "Oh, well?"
| Roger wrote: |
| We are not being taken seriously in our capacity as teachers. |
As long as this goes on, then that will certainly be true. Is this a good thing? For those who consider themselves dedicated teachers (or even backpackers with concern with how people spend their education money) - shouldn't we do whatever we can to combat this trend? Even if we are cynical/feel ineffective, should we then condone it and argue in support of it?
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| You can even say that requiring TEFLers to be certified and qualified is "discrimination". |
To get a good university post in Taiwan and Japan, one needs at least an MA. PhD and/or publications also either preferred or necessary. Should we sue these places for "discriminating hiring practices" on this basis? Isn't there a teensy-weensy itty-bitty difference between taking the most qualified candidtate and taking some Back Street Boy lookalike who can't teach?
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| There are jobs that evidently are better filled by members of certain ethnic groups. |
Is this like girls being bad at math? Lots and lots and lots of ammo here, but I'll hold my fire.
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| Tell me: do you believe your face had no selling point then? |
No, it's true. But the thesis of my argument is that this is not necessarily a good thing. Chaing Kaishek is famous for giving his generals their positions not because the people he chose were the best available commanders - but because they'd be loyal to him. He, um, lost. Yeah, maybe there are better analogies. Do I really have to dig them up? |
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dyak
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 630
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Gotta be useful when they're looking for you at the airport though... |
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leeroy
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 777
Location: London UK
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I'm damn good looking, so the photo thing only really works in my favour
But seriously, I can understand that employers want to see what the potential teachers look like before they hire them - particularly when the students (customers) demand Barbie and Kens. |
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dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I hate to admit it but when I was doing recruitment pretty females(who were qualified) usually got the job. |
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dyak
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 630
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| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2003 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| leeroy wrote: |
| particularly when the students (customers) demand Barbie and Kens. |
I did an activity the other day where students had to choose someone from four candidates to fill an imaginary teaching job at the school; surprisingly (or maybe not) all groups chose a female candidate. When I asked why they stated (quite matter of factly) that 'women were | | |
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