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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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 Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:58 am Post subject: |
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Paul,
I'll look for the link, but Mombusho's most recent policy document for Japnaese high schools says that the goal is fluency in English for daily life. I forget exactly how they worded it, but they said they wanted 4 skills competence in everyday life situations. And they had a bunch of practical suggestions for what teachers should change in order to achieve that goal.
The Japanese teachers in my school however don't believe that Mombusho is committed to this idea and think that it's just a passing fancy.
I would just clarify also that I don't believe all Japanese should learn to speak English. But I do think that those who study English, should graduate high school with, on average, a balanced 4 skills lower intermediate level of English. I think that English should be an elective subject.
And I would disagree with you that Japanese students are proficient in reading and writing. Many Japanese can read fairly well (although, I think, not as well as many give them credit for as they can generally only read texts produced using the schoolbook language they're familiar with), but they can't write. Most of the writing done by Japanese students is completely off the wall and very difficult to interpret unless you either speak Japanese or are very familiar with Japanese English.
Japanese students develop a "reading knowledge" of English. And that's actually fine, if that's the goal. If they just said, "the purpose of high school English is to develop a reading knowledge of English" then they could just focus on that and stop translating Japanese into horrible English. Just study grammar and vocabulary, read passages and answer comprehension questions in Japanese or multiple choice English questions. Stop trying to memorize English equivalents for Japanese phrases.
And I agree very much that a unique form of English exists in Japanese schools. It's an artifical, constructed Japanese schoolbook English that students learn and are then tested on.
Most foreigners learn this artifical English and use it to communicate with Japanese who can "speak" English. As a result, even when speaking English, most Japanese are not actually speaking or listening to natural English.
I just can't help but find the whole English situation in Japan absurd beyond belief. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| Mark wrote: |
Paul,
I'll look for the link, but Mombusho's most recent policy document for Japnaese high schools says that the goal is fluency in English for daily life. I forget exactly how they worded it, but they said they wanted 4 skills competence in everyday life situations. And they had a bunch of practical suggestions for what teachers should change in order to achieve that goal. |
heres the MEXT webpage
http://www.mext.go.jp/english/shotou/index.htm
| Quote: |
| The Japanese teachers in my school however don't believe that Mombusho is committed to this idea and think that it's just a passing fancy. |
I would agree with you there, its a very top-down system, with policy statements and mandates filtering down from Monusho without either the money or practical tools to put the policies into effect. Teachers are now overworked, kids go to juku to catch up on lost lessons and academic levels are falling as kids learn less of more subjects. Many schools now want to go back to a 6-day school week as 5 days is not enough for kids here.
| Quote: |
| I would just clarify also that I don't believe all Japanese should learn to speak English. But I do think that those who study English, should graduate high school with, on average, a balanced 4 skills lower intermediate level of English. I think that English should be an elective subject. |
But the million dollar question is WHO will teach these kids to speak English. In a survey last year only 4% of high school English teachers use spoken English in their classes. Classes may be audiolingual or perhaps use cassettes etc but the teacher has to be a role-model first of all and most simply dont want to speak English. Also the other problem is you get teachers teaching to the test such as Eiken or STEP etc rather than learning for its own sake. teachers get penalised if they cant get students to pass Eiken and it makes them look bad. Making kids pass the test becomes the goal, not learning English.
| Quote: |
| And I would disagree with you that Japanese students are proficient in reading and writing. Many Japanese can read fairly well (although, I think, not as well as many give them credit for as they can generally only read texts produced using the schoolbook language they're familiar with), but they can't write. Most of the writing done by Japanese students is completely off the wall and very difficult to interpret unless you either speak Japanese or are very familiar with Japanese English. |
I help my students with writing and most of it is awful. Japanised english using weird grammar (we all know what that is like) and needing massive re-writing. You have to first deconstruct the language and then build it up again, starting from scratch.
Think though how your efforts at writing Japanese look though even though you may have studied three years at university. My written Japanese leaves a lot to be desired though I communicate well.
| Quote: |
| Japanese students develop a "reading knowledge" of English. And that's actually fine, if that's the goal. If they just said, "the purpose of high school English is to develop a reading knowledge of English" then they could just focus on that and stop translating Japanese into horrible English. Just study grammar and vocabulary, read passages and answer comprehension questions in Japanese or multiple choice English questions. Stop trying to memorize English equivalents for Japanese phrases. |
thats all Japanese tests are, is exercises in memorisation and rote learning. its not about processing language and thinking for themselves. theres no creativity and independent thought. Its a bit like learning to bake a cake, you learn the recipe if you want it to be successful. Think how you studies for finals at university. Didnt you memorise stuff to pass the exam? |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:36 am Post subject: |
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http://www.mext.go.jp/english/topics/03072801.htm
There's the link to the document i was talking about.
Bear in mind, Paul, I agree with most of what you say. I guess my point is that, if not to develop communicative competence, I can't understand the reason why English is in the school system in the first place. There must be a reason.
Why develop this artifical Japanese English and then test kids on their knowledge of it? It serves no practical purpose whatsoever.
If there are not enough English-speaking Japanese teachers, they need to reduce the number of students studying English or hire qualified foreign teachers.
Teachers will always teach to the test, so you need to design a good test.
As for Eiken, as I understand it, EIKEN 2 was designed as the high school level test. How many high school graduates can pass it? Most of the kids in my school can't pass level 3. The idea was that university graduates would pass level 1. How many can do that?
As I said, other countries don't realy expect Japanese to speak English, and most Japanese don't need it in their daily lives. In fact, most Japanese will live and die and never have a conversation with a foreigner.
So, what's the point? Why require everyone to study English in the first place? |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| Mark wrote: |
I agree very much that a unique form of English exists in Japanese schools. It's an artifical, constructed Japanese schoolbook English that students learn and are then tested on.
Most foreigners learn this artifical English and use it to communicate with Japanese who can "speak" English. As a result, even when speaking English, most Japanese are not actually speaking or listening to natural English. |
What's natural English? From London or Liverpool? Melbourne or Tasmania? Texas or New Hampshire? If a new variety of English has developed in Japan then that may be fine for Japanese needs. The idea that populations need to learn to speak like 'native' speakers is faintly ridiculous, especially as native speakers have thousands of dialects amongst themselves.
A study was done on the most easily understandable English dialect globally. I forget the result but it wasn't a native English country, it was something like Swedish English!
Trying to teach a Japanese student to pronounce L's and R's when they're interchangable in Japan is like trying to teach a downtown New Yorker not to speak through their nose. Pointless. Unless they're planning on putting on a Shakespeare adaptation.
Non native varieties of English do not have to mimic native speakers. They are used for a range of functions among those who speak or write it in the region where it's used. It's become localised by adopting some language features of its own like sounds, intonation, sentence structure, words and expressions. This is no less English than the English of native speakers, although many people would argue that it's flawed or 'fossililsed' or in your case, artificial.
In some parts of India they teach their own varieties of English. The idea that a speaker from a traditionally English speaking country has more of an idea about how English should be pronounced and taught is considered not only laughable but also quite offensive. Quite a contrast with the surface adoration that greets you in Japan. |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Posts: 500
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
| Mark wrote: |
I agree very much that a unique form of English exists in Japanese schools. It's an artifical, constructed Japanese schoolbook English that students learn and are then tested on.
Most foreigners learn this artifical English and use it to communicate with Japanese who can "speak" English. As a result, even when speaking English, most Japanese are not actually speaking or listening to natural English. |
What's natural English? From London or Liverpool? Melbourne or Tasmania? Texas or New Hampshire? If a new variety of English has developed in Japan then that may be fine for Japanese needs. The idea that populations need to learn to speak like 'native' speakers is faintly ridiculous, especially as native speakers have thousands of dialects amongst themselves.
A study was done on the most easily understandable English dialect globally. I forget the result but it wasn't a native English country, it was something like Swedish English!
Trying to teach a Japanese student to pronounce L's and R's when they're interchangable in Japan is like trying to teach a downtown New Yorker not to speak through their nose. Pointless. Unless they're planning on putting on a Shakespeare adaptation.
Non native varieties of English do not have to mimic native speakers. They are used for a range of functions among those who speak or write it in the region where it's used. It's become localised by adopting some language features of its own like sounds, intonation, sentence structure, words and expressions. This is no less English than the English of native speakers, although many people would argue that it's flawed or 'fossililsed'.
In parts of India they teach their own varieties of English. The idea that a speaker from a traditionally English speaking country has more of an idea about how English should be pronounced and taught is considered not only laughable but also quite offensive. Quite a contrast with the surface adoration that greets you in Japan. |
I didn't say "native" English, I said "natural" English. Most people would recognize Swedish and Indian English as natural and comprehensible. Japanese English is very difficult to understand, and not only because of pronunciation.
I'm not talking about accent differences, as there are many ways to pronounce English. But your pronunciation should to be comprehensible to most other speakers or else what's the point?
"I am liking go hiking summertime with golden in heart" is not natural (even if pronounced by a native), but it's the sort of thing that Japanese come up with. This sort of thing will never be acknowledged as acceptable English, native or not.
Katakana pronunciation is incomprehensible to most people who don't know Japanese. But, more importantly, the syntactically tortured English (full of inappropriate and misused vocabulary) that Japanese use is not comprehensible.
I actually agree with most of what you say and I think that you've misinterpreted my post.
Just as a side point though, it is certainly possible to teach Japanese to pronounce l and r distinctly.
In the end, Japanese have not developed a version of English comparable with Swedish or Indian English. They just speak Japanese using English words, expressions and syntax rules. As such, it's generally not easily understandable by people who are unfamiliar with Japanese. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| Mark wrote: |
In the end, Japanese have not developed a version of English comparable with Swedish or Indian English. They just speak Japanese using English words, expressions and syntax rules. As such, it's generally not easily understandable by people who are unfamiliar with Japanese. |
Well Swedish English is pretty much at native speaker level so I wouldn't call it a new variety. India has many varieties some of which would be almost incomprehensible to anyone outside of India.
If the variety of English that some Japanese are speaking is useful to them then so what if a native speaker can't understand it?
Here's an example of a pidgin English variety as published. A gold star if you can guess what it is:
"Pren, man bilong Rom, Wantok, harim nau."
It's a variety of English that makes little sense to us but perfect sense to those that speak it. Japan hasn't developed a pidgin or creole, but common 'errors' could just as easily be described as variation if they occur consistently within a group. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:15 am Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
| [What's natural English? From London or Liverpool? Melbourne or Tasmania? Texas or New Hampshire? If a new variety of English has developed in Japan then that may be fine for Japanese needs. The idea that populations need to learn to speak like 'native' speakers is faintly ridiculous, especially as native speakers have thousands of dialects amongst themselves.. |
This is a bit like saying you cant understand someones Japanese because they come from Tohoku or Kyushu and you dont speak Tohoku-ben. Foreigners can learn standard textbook Japanese and be understood by people from those areas and with a little work you can speak with a regional accent. I speak Japanese with a Kansai dialect and am perfectly understood by locals here, infact they appreciate I can speak in local dialect, not textbook Hyojingo.
I tell students they can learn English and then pick up american British or whatever accent or dialect they need when they travel overseas. They will never learn to speak like a Brit or an American, not in this lifetime.
I encourage them to hear different accents, not just Americans ( who make up maybe 5% of all the english speakers in the world) and use tapes with many nationalities.
this last term I have taught a New Zealand culture course and used tapes with Maoris and asians speaking English.
Whole books have been written on "World Englishes" and English language is not the sole preserve of North Americans who have a monopoly on how its spoken or should be used. |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
"Pren, man bilong Rom, Wantok, harim nau."
It's a variety of English that makes little sense to us but perfect sense to those that speak it. Japan hasn't developed a pidgin or creole, but common 'errors' could just as easily be described as variation if they occur consistently within a group. |
You are implying a pidgin is an 'ncorrect English because its unintelligible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin
First off, its not English, but a separate language with its own syntax and vocabulary. A pidgin is a merging of two separate and distinct languages to create a third one understandable to both. Examples of these are cajun and languages used in Papua New Guinea and haiti. they are not english but hybrids of them. I think some aborigines also use a pidgin English as well.
It is erroneous to say they are speaking Wrong english when they are not speaking an English but a pidgin. Both speakers understand the language used. just because an outsider doesnt understand it doesnt mean its wrong.
there is no need to create a pidgin English as 100% of Japanese speak japanese and English is a foreign language. japanese dont need a pidgin language to communicate with foreigners. They need to learn to speak English or foriegners need to learn to speak Japanese. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:28 am Post subject: |
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| PAULH wrote: |
| womblingfree wrote: |
| [What's natural English? From London or Liverpool? Melbourne or Tasmania? Texas or New Hampshire? If a new variety of English has developed in Japan then that may be fine for Japanese needs. The idea that populations need to learn to speak like 'native' speakers is faintly ridiculous, especially as native speakers have thousands of dialects amongst themselves.. |
This is a bit like saying you cant understand someones Japanese because they come from Tohoku or Kyushu and you dont speak Tohoku-ben. Foreigners can learn standard textbook Japanese and be understood by people from those areas and with a little work you can speak with a regional accent. I speak Japanese with a Kansai dialect and am perfectly understood by locals here, infact they appreciate I can speak in local dialect, not textbook Hyojingo. |
Living in Japan and learning Japanese as a foreigner is very different from learning English in Japan as a native Japanese speaker though.
If you are living in Japan and studying then you have ample opportunity to pick up local dialects and the emphasis is on fitting in with the natives.
Learning English in a country full of non English speakers will likely result in a language, if widely used, being modified for local needs and incorporating Japanese pronunciations, sentence structures etc. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| PAULH wrote: |
You are implying a pidgin is an 'ncorrect English because its unintelligible.
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No, I was using the example to state the opposite.
English varieties can be all but uninteligible to native speakers and still function as communicative tools for millions of speakers.
Pidgins are hybrids used as communication between peoples. Creoles are mother tongues derived from combining two languages.
New Englishes are as I described before, when English has become localised or nativised by adopting some language features of its own, such as sounds, intonation patterns, sentence structures, words and expressions.
This is what is occurring all over the world and will, if it hasn't already, develop in Japan.
Last edited by womblingfree on Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:41 am; edited 2 times in total |
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kdynamic
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 562
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| PAULH wrote: |
| JET is a waste of money as you have untrained unqualified foriegners come in once a week for a song and dance, (JET is not about teaching students to speak meaningful English anyway, its about getting Japanese used to meeting foreigners and intercultural understanding, learn about foreign culture through English etc) |
Talking about JET in terms of how well it results in quality English teaching is completely missing the point. It's not a waste of money because that's not the point of the program at all. Just wanted to clear that up. JET does a pretty good job of fulfilling its real goal to get Japanese, even in tiny far flung towns, interacting with foriegners in whatever way.
| womblingfree wrote: |
If the variety of English that some Japanese are speaking is useful to them then so what if a native speaker can't understand it?
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How is it useful to them?? When do they EVER use English other than to communicate with another English speaker (from London, Sweden, India, or anywhere else). Among themselves, Japanese speak Japanese! It's not as if there is a pidgin Japanglish kids are actually running around speaking to one another on a regular basis. It's only used in school English classes, and it's not useful to anybody.
I think the point of Japanese learning English is obvious. It's so they can understand all those ads that say stuff like "house... now! dream" and "my car GET" and "price down: fanciful" 
Last edited by kdynamic on Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:40 am Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
| Living in Japan and learning Japanese as a foreigner is very different from learning English in Japan as a native Japanese speaker though. |
If I learn japanese in Japan its a JSL or Japanese as a Second Language, just like Japanese learning English in America. Japanese learn English as an EFL here. I also have a goal for learning Japanese. There is no difference between JSL or JFL, and ESL or EFL, except where the learning takes place. the end result, one hopes is the same.
| Quote: |
| If you are living in Japan and studying then you have ample opportunity to pick up local dialects and the emphasis is on fitting in with the natives. |
Japan is input rich for learning Japanese but you can still live here 10 years and still not learn any Japanese. It all depends on your motivation and capacity for learning foreign languages.
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| Learning English in a country full of non English speakers will likely result in a language, if widely used, being modified for local needs and incorporating Japanese pronunciations, sentence structures etc. |
I have met japanese who are fluent in English without having left Japan so thats a fallacy. Some I have met even speak better Japanese than native speakers. Japanese can learn to speak English if they have the right input and instruction. My daughter is bilingual becuase she went to international school. there are no local needs as japanese speak Japanese to survive. You are saying Japanese bastardise English on purpose becuase they happen to live in Japan, while its possible for many Japanese to learn proper English. look at all the NOVA students who learn to speak English.
They will incorporate Japanese pronunciation becuase they are japanese. You speak Japanese with a foreign accent because your first language is English. A Frenchman will speak japanese with a French accent. I speak with a new Zealand accent. Native fluency s virtually impossible if you are a non-native speaker though some do reach high levels of fluency (Dave spector etc)
Last edited by PAULH on Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| kdynamic wrote: |
| Talking about JET in terms of how well it results in quality English teaching is completely missing the point. It's not a waste of money because that's not the point of the program at all. Just wanted to clear that up. JET does a pretty good job of fulfilling its real goal to get Japanese, even in tiny far flung towns, interacting with foriegners in whatever way. |
Then it simply becomes rent a gaijin, or you become an object of local curiousity. Is it worth spending 3.6 million on salary, airfares etc for 6000 people just so schools can have its own gaijin? |
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shuize
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:44 am Post subject: |
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| kdynamic wrote: |
| Talking about JET in terms of how well it results in quality English teaching is completely missing the point. It's not a waste of money because that's not the point of the program at all. Just wanted to clear that up. JET does a pretty good job of fulfilling its real goal to get Japanese, even in tiny far flung towns, interacting with foriegners in whatever way. |
As a teaching program, JET is both a failure and a colossal waste of money.
As an international exchange program, JET is still a colossal waste of money.
It reminds me of the "pork" highway projects out in the countryside leading nowhere. Having built the roads / employed the JET teachers, politicians can pat themselves on the back that they've really done something "important" -- when in reality there is very little positive result for the billions upon billions of yen spent. But since both are government programs, the cost / benefit analysis rarely gets done.
Last edited by shuize on Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:54 am; edited 2 times in total |
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kdynamic
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 562
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| PAULH wrote: |
| kdynamic wrote: |
| Talking about JET in terms of how well it results in quality English teaching is completely missing the point. It's not a waste of money because that's not the point of the program at all. Just wanted to clear that up. JET does a pretty good job of fulfilling its real goal to get Japanese, even in tiny far flung towns, interacting with foriegners in whatever way. |
Then it simply becomes rent a gaijin, or you become an object of local curiousity. Is it worth spending 3.6 million on salary, airfares etc for 6000 people just so schools can have its own gaijin? |
Well, the Japanese government has decided that it is worth it. And seeing JETs in my town positively impact people's lives and really open some eyes to ideas about diversity, I tend to agree. You're talking about people who would never interact with another foriegner for the rest of their entire lives if it weren't for the JET. It does have an impact. |
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