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valley_girl
Joined: 22 Sep 2004
Posts: 272
Location: Somewhere in Canada
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khmerhit
Joined: 31 May 2003
Posts: 1874
Location: Reverse Culture Shock Unit
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 Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| you've drunk the kool-aid too, i see |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:05 am Post subject: |
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Globalism and multiculturalism is about respecting every culture but our own. Read some Asian fairy tale to the kids and celebrate 'Kwanzaa' but don't read them 'Johnny Appleseed' or tell them that Christmas is about the birth of Christ.
Kind of like my sig. In fact, it is the same issue. |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| rusmeister wrote: |
Globalism and multiculturalism is about respecting every culture but our own. Read some Asian fairy tale to the kids and celebrate 'Kwanzaa' but don't read them 'Johnny Appleseed' or tell them that Christmas is about the birth of Christ.
Kind of like my sig. In fact, it is the same issue. |
And to think that it started with so-called "cultural relativity" in the 1920s.
Frankly, I have strong resentment toward those who seem to insist on denying us Americans a common, uniquely American, cultural identity by forcing us to acknowledge every kind of hyphenated American as a separate culture. |
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englishgibson
Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 4345
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:00 am Post subject: |
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I am sorry to pop in on your globalism and culturalism, but what is the so called American culture about?
Who are the "uniquely American" people?
From what I've seen it's all about where you come from, how much you make, and how much you own. 
In many European or Asian countries you may find friends "at any corner of streets". ....with all due respect to everyone I am not trying to confront here 
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| Globalism and multiculturalism is about respecting every culture but our own... |
I thought it was the other way around
Peace
and
cheers and beer to all  |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| Chancellor wrote: |
| rusmeister wrote: |
Globalism and multiculturalism is about respecting every culture but our own. Read some Asian fairy tale to the kids and celebrate 'Kwanzaa' but don't read them 'Johnny Appleseed' or tell them that Christmas is about the birth of Christ.
Kind of like my sig. In fact, it is the same issue. |
And to think that it started with so-called "cultural relativity" in the 1920s.
Frankly, I have strong resentment toward those who seem to insist on denying us Americans a common, uniquely American, cultural identity by forcing us to acknowledge every kind of hyphenated American as a separate culture. |
Interesting point about the 20's. If Gatto's history is true, then the planning between NEA, the big business funds of Carnegie and Ford, and the ideologues like John Dewey et al, met in 1916 (I believe). The first teachers taught under the new ideology - that the schools' mission is primarily social engineering of children's behavior rather than its prior mission - the imparting of knowledge, which a person could make of what he willed - would have been released in the 1930's, the first graduates K-10 or K-12 of those teachers by the 1950's, the sexual and cultural revolution rejecting traditional morals began before 1960, Vietnam... it all fits.
The rejection of national culture is the other side of globalization, and that is part and parcel of the ideology that is now actively taught in the teacher training programs. That's who you have to target if you want to change the minds of a nation from free to slave, from independent entrepreneur to dependent employee. But who would want that? (Duh!) Those who are already rich! Big multinationals, foundations... They need a nation of consumers that can read advertisements and believe what they read, but not truly think for themselves.
American culture, that which is uniquely American, is that Yankee enterpreneurialism on which the country was founded, the only country to be so founded on principals of thrift, hard work and godliness, that prevented industrial magnates from getting super rich even a few decades after the Industrial Revolution. Until the 2nd half of the 20th century, immigrants who came here largely strove to assimilate into the dominant culture. It was only after the new ideology took hold that many began to believe they didn't need to adapt anymore, and the new concept of a 'salad bowl' rather than a 'melting pot' began to take hold.
So sorry, English, globalism and multiculturalism are about breaking down trade barriers and pumping all your corporate profit out of all national borders onto the Cayman Islands. The WTO is NOT our friend. (And how the heck come an international body ruled by just a few men can override the will of a national parliament, anyway? But that's another post.) |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:24 am Post subject: |
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I'd be pretty surprised if the kid was really reprimanded simply for using a spoon and fork to eat instead of a knife and fork. What if he were eating spaghetti? Is it wrong to use a spoon and fork to eat spaghetti? I know many
-Italian-Canadians
-Canadians of Italian descent
-Canadians for whom Italian herritage has a personal connection with their own lives in some tangible or intangible manner
who would think you were disgusting for eating spaghetti with a knife and fork. I also know English people who think it's disgusting to eat fish and chips with anything other than your fingers, unless you're in a restaurant. The same for the teabag in a cup method of making tea.
School principals in Canada are not stupid people. They do not say things like "this is not the way Canadians eat; you have to adapt to Quebec society." to parents who are outraged at what appears to be racist behaviour- based on the use of a spoon and fork instead of a knife and fork.
Japanese people at the office will openly laugh at foreign language teachers working in the office for buying knives (usually with a hand action and saying 'food...cut...cut...hahahahahaha!') and eat with knives and forks. Preventing kids from developing that kind of attitude is part of the reason the JET programme exists (but it primarily exists for the reverse reason, to make sure that people in the US, UK, Australia, Canada, New Zealand or Ireland et al -probably in that order of importance- don't have that kind of attitude about Japanese people and culture).
As a Canadian I find it a little strange the way Canadians try to be something other than just "Canadian" (especially if their family has been in Canada for many generations, they don't have lving relatives in the other country, have never been there and don't even understand the language or accent of the people from there- but I suppose traditional customs like those used during Christmas/Channaka etc or food etc from the other country are enough so it's all good), but I have no problem at all with the hyphenated system. Canadian is a thing in itself, but that thing is a salad bowl. Canada lost the Assimilation mode back in the sixties because it was seen as racist. Maybe the US will too one day. |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| In the story, the principal insisted that it was not the use of a spoon in general that was a problem at all, it was some (unspecified) horrific use the child in question was putting the spoon to. If so (and Occam's Razor says it's probably so) then the papers pushed the 'multicultural' angle just to get a story where there was none. |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| Exactly. |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| englishgibson wrote: |
I am sorry to pop in on your globalism and culturalism, but what is the so called American culture about?
Who are the "uniquely American" people?
From what I've seen it's all about where you come from, how much you make, and how much you own.
In many European or Asian countries you may find friends "at any corner of streets". ....with all due respect to everyone I am not trying to confront here
| Quote: |
| Globalism and multiculturalism is about respecting every culture but our own... |
I thought it was the other way around
Peace
and
cheers and beer to all |
There's no need to apologize. American culture, to the extent that it exists, is the collective practice of those values on which the nation was founded - such values as liberty, hard work, self-reliance, and limited government. There was a time when, at least in theory, (The United States of) America was the great melting pot and that the result of that melting process was the creation of a uniquely American identity. Sadly, to America's detriment, the melting pot has been abandoned for the gumbo pot or the salad bowl. |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 1337
Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| GambateBingBangBOOM wrote: |
I'd be pretty surprised if the kid was really reprimanded simply for using a spoon and fork to eat instead of a knife and fork. What if he were eating spaghetti? Is it wrong to use a spoon and fork to eat spaghetti? I know many
-Italian-Canadians
-Canadians of Italian descent
-Canadians for whom Italian herritage has a personal connection with their own lives in some tangible or intangible manner
who would think you were disgusting for eating spaghetti with a knife and fork. I also know English people who think it's disgusting to eat fish and chips with anything other than your fingers, unless you're in a restaurant. The same for the teabag in a cup method of making tea.
School principals in Canada are not stupid people. They do not say things like "this is not the way Canadians eat; you have to adapt to Quebec society." to parents who are outraged at what appears to be racist behaviour- based on the use of a spoon and fork instead of a knife and fork.
Japanese people at the office will openly laugh at foreign language teachers working in the office for buying knives (usually with a hand action and saying 'food...cut...cut...hahahahahaha!') and eat with knives and forks. Preventing kids from developing that kind of attitude is part of the reason the JET programme exists (but it primarily exists for the reverse reason, to make sure that people in the US, UK, Australia, Canada, New Zealand or Ireland et al -probably in that order of importance- don't have that kind of attitude about Japanese people and culture).
As a Canadian I find it a little strange the way Canadians try to be something other than just "Canadian" (especially if their family has been in Canada for many generations, they don't have lving relatives in the other country, have never been there and don't even understand the language or accent of the people from there- but I suppose traditional customs like those used during Christmas/Channaka etc or food etc from the other country are enough so it's all good), but I have no problem at all with the hyphenated system. Canadian is a thing in itself, but that thing is a salad bowl. Canada lost the Assimilation mode back in the sixties because it was seen as racist. Maybe the US will too one day. |
I live just across the border from Canada (and can see Canada from my living room window) and have met a lot of Canadians. I have yet to meet even one who ever referred to himself as anything other than Canadian - no African-Canadian, Asian-Canadian, Irish-Canadian, Italian-Canadian, etc., except for French-Canadians (they so often seem to make it a point to distinguish themselves from other Canadians).
There is nothing racist about simply being Canadian (or about simply being American, for that matter). |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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One modern term that I object to is "Native American". I understand why American Indians could object to being called "Indians", certainly a historical misnomer, but the current term du jour implies that the rest of us are NOT native. How many generations does it take to qualify for native? I had one grandmother who was a mix of French Quebec and Amer. Indian, as it happens, but the rest of my ancestors go back at least 6 generations before being lost in the mist.
My proferred term for Indians would be "First Americans" - accurate, and not exclusive rights to being native to America, which, hey, I also claim. Born 'n' raised, Brer Rabbit! Trying to say I don't have a culture, or that my culture is European is as silly as saying that Indian culture is Asian - heck, they crossed the Bering Straits, after all! Uncle Remus, George Washington Carver, the legacy of the Civil War and slavery, the pioneers moving West and Bugs Bunny are all part of my culture, and uniquely American (You asked, English!). Anyone who wants to try to deny me that is, well, a wiener.
So I'M native American, witha small 'n' on native! |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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Let's all shout "Hallelujah" for the god-fearing, Christian, white male, native-slaying, slave-owning entrepreneurs who founded the thirteen colonies. May their "culture" reign forever on Earth as in Heaven.
All of us 21st-century Americans surely share these cultural traditions, revere them, and want to preserve them.
Right. Exactly. |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Chancellor wrote: |
| There is nothing racist about simply being Canadian (or about simply being American, for that matter). |
It's the Assimilation theory that's racist, not with describing oneself simply as Canadian or American, and the reason is found in this:
| Henry_Cowell wrote: |
| Let's all shout "Hallelujah" for the god-fearing, Christian, white male, native-slaying, slave-owning entrepreneurs who founded the thirteen colonies. May their "culture" reign forever on Earth as in Heaven. |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003
Posts: 2021
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| rusmeister wrote: |
One modern term that I object to is "Native American". I understand why American Indians could object to being called "Indians", certainly a historical misnomer, but the current term du jour implies that the rest of us are NOT native. How many generations does it take to qualify for native? I had one grandmother who was a mix of French Quebec and Amer. Indian, as it happens, but the rest of my ancestors go back at least 6 generations before being lost in the mist.
My proferred term for Indians would be "First Americans" - accurate, and not exclusive rights to being native to America, which, hey, I also claim. Born 'n' raised, Brer Rabbit! Trying to say I don't have a culture, or that my culture is European is as silly as saying that Indian culture is Asian - heck, they crossed the Bering Straits, after all! Uncle Remus, George Washington Carver, the legacy of the Civil War and slavery, the pioneers moving West and Bugs Bunny are all part of my culture, and uniquely American (You asked, English!). Anyone who wants to try to deny me that is, well, a wiener.
So I'M native American, witha small 'n' on native! |
In Canada, they're called First Nations. But other groups are Metis (I don't have an accent aigue on this keyboard, but it should be over the 'e') and Inuit.
Thre term 'native' as used by immigrant peoples when referring to themselves has been used to divide those who arrived earlier from those who had arrived earlier, or were born there (ie discrimination against new arrivals- something that ESL teachers know still occurs all too well). Is someone who was born outside of the US, but grew up in the US less American than someone who was born there? What if someone's grandparents arrived in the US but someone else's great-grandparents arrived in the US? Is the latter more 'American'?
The reason why the term Native is applied isn't because they were born in that palce, but because the linguistics and cultural group from which the people came from is from that area. The rest of the people who live in North America cannot say the same , and that's why they aren't 'native'. In this type of thing it's the macro version of 'culture'- the language etc of the people (English is a Germanic language, Italian is Romance Language, Polish is a Slavic language etc. These are all from Europe, as in decendents of proto Indo-European, the original language used from one end of Europe to South Asia- but not including Semetic languages like Arabic ones or Hebrew). And also it's the macro version of 'America'. Try to think of America in this case not as the US, but as in North and South America- the continents, and maybe it will all seem to make more sence. There is no mention of America (either North or South) in the term Proto Indo-European because the languages native to the Americas aren't part of it. If a language isn't native to the area, then the people whose heritage includes that language are also properly descibed as not being 'native' to the area. But that doesn't mean they aren't 'from there', just that their ancestors came from elsewhere.
see the WIkipedia article on these languages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_languages |
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