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CMB
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 46
Location: Barcelona
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 Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:57 pm Post subject: Americans: movement to legalize work visas |
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Someone has started an official petition to request that American TEFL teachers be eligible for a 1 year renewable visa in Europe. If you're interested in reading/ signing it here's the link:
http://www.petitiononline.com/1yrTEFLv/ |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Interesting, but extremely unlikely to change anything. At least, in the foreseeable future. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry to be so negative. I should add 'unfortunately' unlikely to change anything......
But it's also important to be realistic. |
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daily chai
Joined: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 150
Location: Brussels
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: and for Europeans? |
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Thanks for bringing this up, a lot of non-EU people are interested in working there.
My question is on this topic (not directed at you), what is the quid pro quo for Europeans? Will there be a renewable work permit in the US or other countries for European workers? North Americans have an advantage in getting hired in East Asia as our accent is preferred. In Europe at least the British accent is preferred *and* moreover the work permit/hiring conditions favor them massively. IMO the situation is balanced. How fair would it be for boatloads of non-EU to show up and take away jobs from Europeans? It shrinks the job market too much for them. With supply so great, the pay would go down, work conditions would go down, and unemployment of locals would go up. I hardly think it's fair. In America at least there is a huge country for people to work in, while Brits and the Irish have small islands to find work if they are pushed out of the continental market due to carpetbaggers.
I agree with Spiral in that this won't go far, in that there is no reciprocal situation for European workers going abroad. It would be unfair to European workers. But kudos to the person who started it anyway, for wanting something and trying to make a difference. That I admire. I just disagree with their goal because of its selfishness (and I'm American, before anyone asks.) |
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TheLongWayHome
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 1016
Location: San Luis Piojosi
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:37 pm Post subject: yanks but no yanks |
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| daily chai wrote: |
| My question is on this topic (not directed at you), what is the quid pro quo for Europeans? Will there be a renewable work permit in the US or other countries for European workers? North Americans have an advantage in getting hired in East Asia as our accent is preferred. In Europe at least the British accent is preferred *and* moreover the work permit/hiring conditions favor them massively. IMO the situation is balanced. How fair would it be for boatloads of non-EU to show up and take away jobs from Europeans? It shrinks the job market too much for them. With supply so great, the pay would go down, work conditions would go down, and unemployment of locals would go up. I hardly think it's fair. In America at least there is a huge country for people to work in, while Brits and the Irish have small islands to find work if they are pushed out of the continental market due to carpetbaggers. |
Exactly. I asked the same question on the General Discussion Forum. Seems some Americans have got carried away with the invasion mentality. Moreover:
| the petition wrote: |
| As American English is rapidly becoming the language of business worldwide, the demand for native speakers to teach American English is also on the rise. |
The justification for it is so lame. As if British/European English and American English were no longer mutually understandable. There is just no demand/need for it other than a self-imposed one. |
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CMB
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 46
Location: Barcelona
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| You make some good points. Just a quick disclaimer - I didn't start the petition, but I thought it was an interesting idea. Also, to play devil's advocate a bit, isn't it possible that by legalizing Americans this could force places who hire them illegally since it's cheaper to "go legit" and give everyone benefits and contracts? and eventually raise the standard (and therefore the salary) of English teaching in the long run, since teachers would have to be more qualified? (Although, I'll conceed that an Associate's degree seems a weak required qualification...) |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I agree with Spiral in that this won't go far, in that there is no reciprocal situation for European workers going abroad. It would be unfair to European workers. |
Not exactly. Someone from Spain or France with a university diploma can already get a visa to teach Spanish or French in American high schools. I know a German who got a job in an American high school. Someone on Dave's also noted that a British classmate got a job teaching in an American high school. I also had a British classmate who got a job teaching German. So, the idea that Europeans cannot get a visa to teach in the US is a little bogus. Of course the demand for teachers in the US is probably greater. If a Brit was willing to work in a less than desirable place and had a teaching certification from England they could probably find a job and receive a work permit.
To add to that, the US government offers around 5,000 visas to Indians every year to allow them to teach in public schools. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/06/eveningnews/main1689748.shtml |
and here is a recent article to prove that foreign teachers are recruited to work in the US! The article does not mention Brits but I am sure that they would accept Brits too, since their English is better than Indians.
| Quote: |
Someone has started an official petition to request that American TEFL teachers be eligible for a 1 year renewable visa in Europe. If you're interested in reading/ signing it here's the link: |
I understand this petition is not exactly the same as the situation in America but to say that Europeans cannot teach in America is just not true. |
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CMB
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 46
Location: Barcelona
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm so glad you mentioned that! I was starting to feel guilty for posting the link since there's a nasty "ugly, arrogant americans" thread going on in the General discussion board under this topic. I do think the wording about American English being the true language of business is a bit much, but it's good to note that things are more balanced than they may have appeared. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Well it just shows that some Dave's posters often do not know what they are talking about. I don't know this for a fact but I have heard that certified American teachers can also get jobs in needy areas in England. |
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TheLongWayHome
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 1016
Location: San Luis Piojosi
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| CMB wrote: |
| Also, to play devil's advocate a bit, isn't it possible that by legalizing Americans this could force places who hire them illegally since it's cheaper to "go legit" and give everyone benefits and contracts? |
Being legit is one thing but having benefits and a contract is another in the world of tefl.
| JZer wrote: |
| I don't know this for a fact but I have heard that certified American teachers can also get jobs in needy areas in England. |
This is very true. The UK is desperate for high school teachers and freely gives visas out to fill this need. That's the way it works--the need can't be met by the locals so people are hired from abroad. This is also why most of us teflers have jobs. I know several Americans that have become high school teachers in England.
The true language of business is being able to understand any English, be it American, British, Indian or whatever.
I know I'm generalising but Americans also have a very low tolerance for foreign accents--perhaps that's why it's pushed as the 'language of business'. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I know I'm generalising but Americans also have a very low tolerance for foreign accents--perhaps that's why it's pushed as the 'language of business'. |
I don't know about the average non-ESL Brit but I have come across quite a few Brits who were adamant about only teaching British English. I teach both to adults when I know both the British usage and American usage. Like queuing as opposed to standing in a line. |
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stillnosheep
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 2068
Location: eslcafe
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I agree with Spiral in that this won't go far, in that there is no reciprocal situation for European workers going abroad. It would be unfair to European workers. |
Not exactly. Someone from Spain or France with a university diploma can already get a visa to teach Spanish or French in American high schools. I know a German who got a job in an American high school. Someone on Dave's also noted that a British classmate got a job teaching in an American high school. I also had a British classmate who got a job teaching German. So, the idea that Europeans cannot get a visa to teach in the US is a little bogus. |
That suitably qualified foreign teachers can obtain work permits to teach subjects at US public schools for which there is a shortage of suitably qualified local teachers while US citizens are unable to obtain work permits to teach EFL within the EU is a red herring, as would be a comparison of the ability of suitably qualified US teachers to obtain work permits to teach subjects in EU public schools for which there is a shortage of suitably qualified local teachers with the inability of EU citizens to obtain work permits to teach EFL within the US.
In both cases work permits are issued to foreign teachers suitably qualified to teach subjects for which the demand cannot be met by local qualified teachers and refused to those simply wishing to teach EFL when there are plenty of local citizens able to teach EFL.
Daily Chai is absolutely correct: The EU grants work permits to qualified teachers willing to teach subjects for which there is a shortage of local teachers and refuses work permits to foreigners wishing to teach EFL as there is an abundance of English speaking EU citizens just as the US grants work permits to teachers willing to teach subjects at US public schools for which there is a lack of locally qualified teachers and refuses to issue work permits to EU citizens wanting to teach EFL in the US as there is no shortage of US English speakers.
This petition asks for an end to this symmetry whilst making no demands on the US govt to issue renewable work permits to any US nationals with 2 or 3 years post high school education who wishes to spend a few months or years working in and travelling around the US and is prepared to offer themselves for employment for wages and conditions that would depress those of the US workers with whom they might like to compete.
It has exactly zero chances of being accepted, rightly so. |
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spiral78
Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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This is pretty much a complete exercise in futility.
Quite honestly, this petition has 0 chance of ever being put forward to the EU countries by the U.S. in any case.
It is simply a citizen's request to a pack of senators and congressmen in Washington, DC, who have a great lot of more important issues to focus their attention on.
This won't go past their secretaries, regardless of 'thousands' of signatures. I'll bet the farm  there will be no response to this petition whatsoever.
I mean, come on, those thousands who have signed are largely members of a group of citizens who are notorious for not voting in any case (young adults).
And they all want to leave the country, anyway, also not indicative of their being a significant voting block (I mean, how many of you have honestly bothered to vote from aborad? I admit that I missed the 2000 election myself, and have rued and regretted that ever since. I don't want to imply that NONE of us vote from abroad - it's just not that common).
I predict that this petition will haunt forums like this for a while, when some newb who wants to work in Spain or Italy will cry that he/she thought there was some 'new law' between the U.S. and the EU that would allow him/her the loophole he/she wants to pursue his/her dream of partying in Madrid for a year. Sorry to be negative again - I am not tarring every newbit with the same brush, but this all stereotypes have a little truth in them. |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| shortage of local teachers and refuses work permits to foreigners wishing to teach EFL as there is an abundance of English speaking EU citizens |
I am not sure that I agree that there is an abundance of English speaking EU citizens. It really depends how hard schools and governments are trying to push English. I think that Spain and Italy could use a program like JET and that might allow for some Americans to teach in Europe. Furthermore there is already a program that will allow recent American graduates to work as an assistant language instructor in a high school.
But overall I agree that this petition is not about anyone's need for English teachers but someone's selfish desire to teach EFL in the EU. These people should just settle for work in the Czech Republic or Poland. |
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