Job Discussion Forums

billybuzz · Joined: 05 Jan 2006 Posts: 219 Location: turkey

Yes Sal I think that pretty much wraps up the current situation .Now as a question to you ,why are you thinking of a language school? I assume you have the correct quals therefore I beg to suggest you can do better than as thrifty would say a bottom feeder school .

Sally Vaite · Joined: 30 Jul 2006 Posts: 27 Location: Izmir

I take it then you consider private english language courses as "bottom feeder" schools? Why so?

lovelace · Joined: 26 Jul 2006 Posts: 190

Just to put in my two-penneth worth, I've worked for three different private language schools in Turkey and the contracts are largely unenforceable - the reality is that you are the whim of the school manager or owner as to whether they see fit to paying you on time, awarding you full benefits or treating you fairly. I don't believe a contract will help you, but it seems significant that you weren't even given a copy to keep. That's standard business practice and while it may not make any real difference in the event of a dispute, withholding the copy does suggests to me that the school either has something to hide or isn't even aware of the basic protocols of employing staff. Worrying either way. Confused

But! Despite all that, I really enjoy being in a language school environment. From what I understand from friends at universities and primary/high schools, teaching in private language schools means you have much more freedom to experiment in the classroom, to adapt to students' needs and obviously, there's no pressure from pushy parents. I've met students of all ages from all backgrounds and that has been one of the joys of teaching in Turkey. Very Happy

scb222 · Joined: 24 Jan 2003 Posts: 175 Location: Brisvegas, Oz

yes sally, whenever you work in a foreign country teaching English you as the foreign teacher have no recourse. It doesnt matter that the contract is not enforceable, they never are if it is YOU getting shafted - i have also heard that the turkish authorities dont accept english contracts, did you sign a turkish one? i had to, and it even stated my pay as being half of what it actually was. Thankfully, my employer still paid me the correct amount. you have to take your chances and if you dont like your school you simply run or resign. what can you do otherwise? you cant take them to court as it would cost you a fortune and most of these country's legal systems are soooo bogged down and corrupt youd never win anyway. yes of course you should have a copy of your contract, you should have at least got a photocopy. however, if you are currently happy in your job and are being paid i wouldnt worry about it tooo much. perhaps ask for a copy, but other than that leave it lie. one thing foreigners must realise is that WE have no rights per se in these mildly developed countries where TEFL jobs are a dime a dozen, it' not like in the West, so there's no need hoping/thinking that you have a leg to stand on. you can only pray you get a good and fair employer, if you dont, find another one.

thrifty · Joined: 25 Apr 2006 Posts: 1665 Location: chip van

Agreed but I have never found a fair and decent employer in Turkey or in TEFL in general. Moving from job to job hoping to find the impossible gets waring after a while.

scb222 · Joined: 24 Jan 2003 Posts: 175 Location: Brisvegas, Oz

it does. and yes, it is hard to find a good employer, and esp. in turkey. however, i guess i have been lucky, cos after 5 years in tefl in 3 countries i have always been paid what my contract stated. so although i didnt like many of my employers, nor their students, i did in fact get all that was promised to me.

corall · Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 270 Location: istanbul, turkey

if there is no work visa, no contract can stand up anywhere in this country, that simple. you trust that your employers pay you on time and do what they say they will. if they don't you can leave and go somewhere else. even if they gave you a photo copy of your contract, if you're illegal there is nothing you can do about it (or them for that matter if you quit)

it is possible to find a fair employer in turkey, i work with one.

molly farquharson · Joined: 16 Jun 2004 Posts: 839 Location: istanbul

it's not true that foreigners don't have rights in this country. however, the court system grinds very slowly indeed. I am going into the 5th year in court about a house. A foreigner might be asked to post a bond, though my judge decided I didn't need to. An italian friend at Koc Univ just won a case against the univ to do with her leaving, and won a very large amount of money. She was not an English teacher, by the way.

thrifty · Joined: 25 Apr 2006 Posts: 1665 Location: chip van

I think by ''rights'' we were referring to employment rights when you are working illegally. Koc employs people legally and they have work permits, social security, holiday pay, sick pay etc. as you well know.

Those working on tourist visas have no employment rights.

lovelace · Joined: 26 Jul 2006 Posts: 190

Can I ask a potentially very dumb question? I know why schools don't get teachers work permits, but why does the Turkish government make it so difficult to work legally? Is it just bureaucratic mess or is there another agenda? At the moment they're aren't a lot of CELTA-qualified English teachers, so we're not taking jobs away from Turks...

thrifty · Joined: 25 Apr 2006 Posts: 1665 Location: chip van

From a historical perspective I remember the old system up until 98 or 99 when you just arrived on a tourist visa and your employer got you a work permit. I had work permits issued by a two different employers and it was simple. My first employer in Turkey did not get me a work permit but I think that was sheer bloodymindedness rather than anything else. There was a lot of stuff in the media around the time the system changed about how there were so many million foreigners working in Turkey and taking jobs from Turks and I am sure that that is why they came up with the present system.

I also think we need to remember that TEFLers are only a fraction of the number of foreign workers in Turkey and the current work permit system was not created with TEFLers in mind.

I also believe that EFL employers (the bad ones) exploit the system as an excuse for not putting the time and money into organising and getting work permits for their teachers. It is cheaper and far easier for them to put the onus on the teachers to do visa runs and it makes the teachers much more exploitable.

I also think that because EFL is so last minute and the pay and conditions worldwide are so poor that it is hard for employers to go through the paperwork and expense when they never know how many teachers they will need so far in advance and whether the teacher they employed will turn up. Notice how international schools do not seem to have that problem nor do places like Sabanci.

Finally CELTA qualified teachers are not crucial to the Turkish Republic and do you think that lawmakers consider the number of 4 weekers the country may need when they enact laws?

Sally Vaite · Joined: 30 Jul 2006 Posts: 27 Location: Izmir

Another silly question perhaps.
If an employer tells you to " just go ahead and sign the contract and we can start the work permit process", how long are you supposed to wait? What is the average time for this process?

And during this time, you are technically working illegally, I assume. But if you don't sign the contract, the employer won't apply for a work permit. A kind of Catch-22 with all the liability on the illegal worker.

The reason I mention this is because, from the other posts, it may sound like the prospective teacher is purposely working illegally, that is, knowingly breaking the law regardless of the consequences, but in fact, many schools start teachers on their schedule well before the work permits arrive, assuring them that " the permission will be coming next week." Is this the usual scenario? And is it so common as to be an acceptable practice in Turkey?

molly farquharson · Joined: 16 Jun 2004 Posts: 839 Location: istanbul

the govt knows that many companies have people working for them that are out of status. A friend of mine is marketing director for a large company, and he was out of status for a while too, so it is not just teachers. It is a long wait for the work permit, truthfully, but it's not like the States, where they round up the illegals every once in a while. They just generally turn a blind eye. the private univs have a special deal with the govt, but so far the language schools don't, unfortunately. I think it is because they don't work together, since they are in competition. The way to get around border runs is to get a residence permit, which also makes it easier to get the work permit, eventually. You have to have the correct papers and you do indeed have to sign the contract. Remember that the term Byzantine bureaucracy came from here...

thrifty · Joined: 25 Apr 2006 Posts: 1665 Location: chip van

''Out of status'' is another apalling just made up one like ''underqualified.''

There is no special deal with private unis unless you count the fact that universities do have it easier as they deal with YOK rather than the Ministry of Education.

Private universities too are in fierce competition just like language schools, the only difference is that the private language schools compete in a more bottom feeder like pool.

The fact is that the bottom feeder language schools will not invest the time and money in providing decent pay, conditions and work permits. It has been like this for years and shows no sign of improving.

billybuzz · Joined: 05 Jan 2006 Posts: 219 Location: turkey

O.k Sally,hopefully the last few posts have given you a clearer picture of why the term "bottom feeder schools " was first invented .The school you mention ,however, is generally considered to be the best one in the city .however it is quite frankly not the place for me or even thrifty or you if you have any quals or exp at all .