Job Discussion Forums

[SeasonedVet]

I was reading the post "Is This True" where the OP is from Malta and he was asking about hiring practices and native English Speakers.

Who qualifies to be a native English Speaker?

Somebody mentioned that there was a teacher from Trinidad and Tobago, and somebody had to be reminded that English is spoken in Malta, and there was a mention of a teacher from an African country. All teaching or have taught here in Japan.

In some Asian countries there is a requirement that teachers be from the USA, Canada, Australia, Britain, New Zealand ( and sometimes South Africa and Ireland depending). These are the countries that are considered as Native English countries so they produce native English speakers.
Therefore many Asians do not know that English is spoken elsewhere. Moreover Many People from the Very Countries Mentioned Don't Know that English is spoken elsewhere OR they believe that if it is spoken in other countries it is spoken with an accent or as a second language.
Are they wrong for thinking that? NO? Because it is true to some extent. Many people from other countries where English is spoken speak it as a second language OR as a first language with an accent.

Having said that Now I will say this:
There are speakers of English in countries other than the ones mentioned who speak English Without an accent, With a British accent, With an American accent, with a neutral accent and so on.
Why is this not well known???
Good question BUT apparently the Japanese if not other Asians are finding out. This is where I praise the Japanese because they seem to be a little more open when it comes to hiring practices than in other Asian Countries.
And some Japanese make it their business to find out about stuff if they don't know and thereafter make an effort to adapt to what is happeneing in the world (specifically this point, Hiring speakers of English not from the countries mentioned)

Therefore you will find teachers from Trinidad and Tobago ( Formerly British West Indies), you will find teachers from some African countries( former British Colonies), you will find teachers from Jamaica (Formerly British West Indies) you will find teachers from Barbados (formerly British West Indies)
The same way you will find French teachers from Former French African Colonies and former french colonies or protectorates like Martinique (French West Indies).

The thing is though whether the language spoken by the person is spoken clearly and understandably. This will depend on if the target language is the teacher's first or second language and it might depend on what kind of accent the person uses.

In some countries where English is spoken, it is spoken with a variety of accents. Take Britain for example, there are a number of accents and Dialects Of English spoken in Britain.

Also in the former British territories, the English spoken there is spoken with a number of accents depending on what the substrate language is or was and how it mixed with the superstrate language.

This post is becoming a little long, there is more but I will stop and wait for some comments.

[24601]

What's crazy is my husband has had 12 years of english schooling, is from Canada, and in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM resembles a native english speaker. Meanwhile, my daughter, who could likely end up with absolutely zero formal english schooling, yet has been speaking english since birth, is not considered a native speaker.

What?!

They reeeeeally need to investigate this more. To me the test is super simple: if neither one of your parents spoke english with you or you did not go to english school from K-12, you're not a native speaker, no matter what country you're from.

[Glenski]

I used to think I had no noticeable accent. Then I changed my viewpoint because everyone has an accent. It's just that one may be clearer and easier to understand. So, please don't say that people have "no English accent". It all depends on the listener's point of view and background.

Yes, Japan doesn't easily recognize more than the 5 main countries -- USA, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand -- as having native English speakers. Part of this tunnel vision, I believe, stems from its perception of what is "good" English, or "fashionable" English. Another part may be simply the "usefulness" of a certain accent or dialect. And yet another part may be from sheer ignorance/naivete.

24601 wrote:

[Apsara]

It always makes me laugh when I am told by earnest young North Americans "Where I come from, we don't have an accent", when they have an accent that a Kiwi or Aussie will pick up on the instant they open their mouths. I remember as a young child thinking that New Zealanders didn't have accents and everybody else did, some people just take longer to realise that everyone has an accent to someone

[GambateBingBangBOOM]

[SeasonedVet]

Quote from Glenski

"I used to think I had no noticeable accent. Then I changed my viewpoint because everyone has an accent. It's just that one may be clearer and easier to understand. So, please don't say that people have "no English accent". It all depends on the listener's point of view and background."

Glenski, what I should have said is some speakers of English from countries other than the ones first mentioned (England, USA New Zealand Australia, South Africa, Ireland, canada), in some cases have No Recognizeable Accent. Now I know I will have to explain what I mean. By this I mean that when they speak English you cannot tell which country they are from because they do not have an accent that relates to any of the aforementioned countries. Neither do they speak with such a "Thick" accent (from their country of birth or the country where they grew up) that might indicate where they are from ( for example a kenyan speaking English with a distinct Kenyan Language accent leading you to guess that he/she might be from Africa).

There are some speakers of English who when they speak with the ""Non recognizeable accent [sometimes called Neutral accent maybe]" one cannot guess where they might have been born or raised because their lack of an accent (or neutral accent if you like)

Glenski might very well be correct about the listeners point of view or background. I'll give you an example.
Without telling you which country I was born and raised in.
Japanese people can't place my accent or lack of a recognizeable one. They usually tell me that I speak English "very clearly and that they have NO Difficulty understanding it"
In Japan Australians tell me my accent is more like American. However some Americans might not think so and if anything they might guess that I am the child of an immigrant or maybe from a cultural melting pot city like New York where there are so many accents.
However people who are accustomed to hearing the accent of my country tell me that they can pick up traces of that accent in my voice.
So for some people I have a 'Neutral Accent"
For others sounds more like American
For others they can hear something in my voice that others can't pick up.

The truth is my accent is "MIXED" and has produced a totally different accent which cannot be totally linked to any other.

[Glenski]

[fion]

Everyone has an accent. Americans have an Americen accent. You can tell they are from the US the minute they open their mouths. In what way is this different from a Kenyan with a Kenyan accent which might lead people to think, oooh, maybe he's from Africa?
Of course there are fashions and prejudices involved. For example an American accent is sometimes perceived as annoying by Europeans. Rightly or wrongly, it carries connotations of ignorance and arrogance. It is also not necessarily easy to understand; I've reached the stage of looking at Japanese subtitles to help me with the dialogue of American movies, and believe me, that means I'm really struggling.
I think we should get away from this idea of one 'correct' so-called 'accentless' English. Let's discourage this idea in our students.

[SeasonedVet]

Nobody was suggesting that there be "correct so called accentless" English.
I was explaining a point that was discussed by a poster before me.
Nobody said anything is wrong with Kenyan accent.
I certainly am not suggesting any of those things.
I was explaining a point.
You'd have to read the whole thread carefully.

[fion]

Quote from seasonedvet

'Glenski, what I should have said is some speakers of English from countries other than the ones first mentioned (England, USA New Zealand Australia, South Africa, Ireland, canada), in some cases have No Recognizeable Accent. Now I know I will have to explain what I mean. By this I mean that when they speak English you cannot tell which country they are from because they do not have an accent that relates to any of the aforementioned countries. Neither do they speak with such a "Thick" accent (from their country of birth or the country where they grew up) that might indicate where they are from ( for example a kenyan speaking English with a distinct Kenyan Language accent leading you to guess that he/she might be from Africa).'

Sorry if I misunderstood you, but here you appear to be saying that by 'accent' you mean a way of speaking that identifies the person's country of origin. I was trying to point out that this is true of the vast majority of speakers, including Americans and people from other traditional, well-known English-speaking countries. So I don't really understand what distinction you were trying to make in your original post. (I did read it twice!) If it so happens that no-one can identify your particular accent, well, so what? It's still an accent, just an unusual one.

[Glenski]

[24601]

[Shion]

[gZo]

I'm the best example for that. My mother is German, my father American.
I'm not speaking with a full on American accent, neither do I with a typical German accent. Some people are sometimes guessing that I�m American some people can�t tell it at all. One person sad once: �Where is your accent from? It�s somehow not really American and for sure not German.� It could be that I�m just picking up the different accents from the people I�m hanging out with lately. To my opinion Japanese people don�t mind at all. They just tell me when I only mention to them that I�m German: �Your English is great� After I tell them I�m American as well, they just say:　�Ah, that�s why�
I think therefore, they just care about your pronunciation and your ability of fluency speaking in general. I mean I thought my English is crap and I still do, compared to a full on native speaker, but if I compare my English with a studied Japanese ELT, I have to say it�s awesome.
And what would you call Scottish accent for example? Some of the so called native speakers sometimes aren�t even able to understand them. I do, even that it�s hard work.
Accents exit of course and I think as long as you speak proper English, everything is fine. In Germany there are so many different accents, but they are still native speaker.
And I can tell you, I met a Japanese guy here who speaks less with an accent than some Germans and it�s easier to understand him than some Bavarians.
I don�t know if all that makes a lot of sense what I wrote now, but maybe it was helpful.

Cheers

[SeasonedVet]

gZo,
What you wrote was quite helpful. Some of us don't know about these situations and it creates a learning opportunity for us.

We as English teachers may also want to know what's going on in the industry.
One of the original reasons for this post was to show that there are native speakers of English who are not necessarily from "the big 5" countries. ( sometimes big 7).