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Mike_2003



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 344
Location: Bucharest, Romania

PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bebsi,

You got quite excited there, but if you look at my original post you'll see I did actually say "400 Euros a month to subsist" rather than to live a decent life style. Even then I was being quite generous, but I was taking 'subsist' to mean what a typical expat would need, i.e. including some cable TV, internet, and not living in a gypo-infested block on the outskirts of town, and so on.

I quite agree, if you want to live it up, you'd need about 800-1000 Euro a month, especially if you want a big flat (and thus higer bills in addition) and a car and wot not.

As for wasitline, I'd best not comment...Romanian food isn't the most forgiving on the calories to say the least Smile

I missed out on the property boom, and now don't have to capital handy to invest. Rent is a crime here. I pay 170 but it's just a studio flat, but with a nice landlandy (doesn't rip me off, takes me out to dinner from time to time) and in a location I like (just off Mihai Bravu). For little more I was renting a 3-bedroomed place in Istanbul!

Anyway, glad we uncrossed our wires. Let me know if you fancy an Ursus next time you're back in town.

Mike
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Frizzie Lizzie



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 123
Location: not where I'd like to be

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The awareness of the importance of English hasn't caught on here yet."

Really? Children are learning English from the age of 5 in Romania these days, and while there are foreign language classes in ANY public school, you will not find that in the Turkish education system!
I must disagree with the above quote and say that the awareness of the importance of English has always been there. Communism had nothing to do with it.
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Bebsi



Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958

PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:04 pm    Post subject: Importance of English Reply with quote

I should clarify what I had said earlier and explain that while many are aware of the importance of English, yes, there isn't the awareness that there should be in the corporate sector. This IS changing, albeit slowly. Also, how could anyone, for example, compare the Romanian TEFL industy with those of Poland, Hunagry and the Czech Republic?

English is indeed taught in the state shools. However, my wife works in the state sector...as an English teacher...and has been describing the state teaching system to me at length. It sounds like a Kafkaesque cross between a hilarious dream and a brutal nightmare. Students that are officially classed as Inetrmediate, for example, can barely write a simple sentence using verb "be" in the simple present. In addition, I would reiterate, there is a strong tendency among Romanian students...even though they may indeed be aware of the importance of English per se....to want to learn English through the medium of Romanian. This is sadly not untypical of Romania generally: many people want the results but they are utterly unaware of what it takes to achieve them. They want the easy solution, and this is what I meant when I said previously that an influence of Communism is in evidence here.

Quote:
Communism had nothing to do with it.


I sincerely hope that you wouldn't attempt to argue that the general state of the Romanian economy has nothing to do with the Communist past? Because of the especially brutal nature of the Ceausescu regime, a whole nation was destoyed mentally and psychologically, much more so than most other former communist eastern-European states. This has very much manifested itself economically, and explains why a potentially great country, with plenty of resources, and an intelligent and scientifically-well-educated population, is in the economic morass in which it finds itself.

I actually have great hopes for Romania, despite what might initially appear to be a pessimistic viewpoint. Indeed, it is my adopted country...but shouldn't that be all the more reason to see its failings, and try to remedy them in time? A key to doing this, is to discover the root cause, in this case Communism. Modern Romania has potential, but modern Romanians have a low self-image, and a very negative view of their country's potential. They DO want more, but they fail to understand what it takes to get it, and lack the confidence to try. This mental state is unquestionably a result of communism, where initiative, ambition, and any kind of commercial thinking were considered anathema.
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dracotei



Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lizzie/Bebsi,

I have to agree with Bebsi here. Communism has pretty much everything to do with it. I remember one of my English lessons under the communist regime in Romania was "The Socialist Republic of Romania". It's not that they didn't want to teach you English, it's the bull they fed you. Those public school lessons taken at School #165 in Berceni proved to be useless to me when I arrived in Chicago. After all, when I told some of my college classmates in the states that I am Romanian and one of them said "Oh, you're from Rome!", I realised how far apart our wordls were. I did't know what pizza and Coca-Cola was until I came here. Not to mention that I had never heard of drugs. For me coffee was what classified as a drug. I guess my point is, thare was a lot I did't know about the U.S. and there is a lot the people here did't know about Romania. Communism managed to keep us out of touch with the rest of the world. Also, to this day, a lot of Romanian people think money grows on trees in the U.S. and that most American women look like the girls on Baywatch. As we know, that is far from the truth.

Peace
"Chicago - Chris"
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Bebsi



Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958

PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm reading you loud and clear, Dracotei.

Communism screwed what was once one of the bright stars of Europe, and there is no doubt that all sorts of deals were done during WW2 between the west and Stalin in order to secure Russian support. I believe the real damage was done at Yalta.

However, all that is now in the past, and should stay there. Sadly however, many Romanians still go around blaming the west and saying that the west owes Romania such a lot. Perhaps the EU has a certain responsibility to assist the new members to integrate, and to give them a finacial kick-start (coming in due course), but Romanians must accept that it is ultimately their responsibility and theirs alone to seize their country's economy by the scruff of the metaphoric neck. This will not be easy...in fact it will be hellishly difficult, not helped by adverse factors such as a poor image in certain western countries, an economy that is still to a large extent controlled by "pretend" businessmen masquerading as communications industry tycoons with teenage brides and mercedes-driving mafiosos, and of course, very low self-esteem. Throw in a rusty bureaucracy and yes, it is indeed tough for Romanians.

However, pull themselves up they must. They must overcome the apallingly poor image that they themselves and others have of them. They must learn how an open market economy works. They must get to understand that this is a democracy and they have power to decide whether to be governed by real leaders or gypsy-overlords-made-good. They must grasp that there are unfortunately, no free lunches and that the west is NOT a land of money-trees growing in lush abundance where Swedes, Americans, Irish, Swiss and others pop out before breakfast to pick the day's banknotes. Likewise, many western societies (including my native Ireland, which has a dreadful attitude towards Romanians) must learn that most Romanians are decent hard-working people and are not aspiring crimelords, prostitutes and beggars.

Romania is a country with a vast amount to offer its own people, those who invest here and indeed, its future fellow EU citizens. It is rich in natural resources, has an intelligent, resourceful young population and is an exquisitely beautiful country to visit with a fabulous history and heritage.

In the short term the EU must certainly give that financial kickstart to Romania, but its greatest responsibility must be to break down those barriers that still keep Europe divided. Stalin and Ceausescu are dead, but so are Churchill and Roosevelt. We must all learn, east and west, to abandon the myths and prejudices of the past and look to the possibilities of the future.

Oh, and realise that you can only learn English through English, and not through Romanian Laughing


Last edited by Bebsi on Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:55 am; edited 1 time in total
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dracotei



Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you Bebsi, as far as the general attitude of the Romanian people goes. Keep in mind though that it's very difficult to teach older generations to have hope. This is what I see when I go back home on the faces of some of the older people, sadness and hopelessness. It took many decades to bring them where they are and it will take at least a few to get them on the right track. It sadens me when I see our men do what they do to our beautiful women. BUT, you said it, low self esteem is what does it. All I ask of others when they go to Romania is to realise that although Ceausescu is dead, his spirit weighs heavily upon the hearts of many people. They didn't deserve that. Bucharest used to be called "the Little Paris of the East." Communism managed to change that. I think it's the young people who can be changed. This is why I'd like to go back and be part of that process. I just hope I'll be in the right place at the right time. After all I'm not a teacher because I want to get rich, I am one because I care.

Yes, I know, this is why I completed some of my courses in France and Italy Wink Back then it was a different world for us.
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Mike_2003



Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 344
Location: Bucharest, Romania

PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In addition to what Bebsi has already said, I think Romanians need to realise that money CAN be made legally. I've seen so many very resourceful young Romanian make lots of money through ingenius criminal activities, and I mean vastly complicated 'business' enterprises, not just selling drugs or women. If they just turned a part of that skill to legitimate activies they'd succeed.

Sadly the emphasis still seems to be on making a quick profit (often followed equally quickly by a stint in prison...or in politics) rather than building something more lasting over time. I can only suspect this 'quick buck' mentality comes from years of instability where nothing was sure for very long.

Mike
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Bebsi



Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You've hit the nail on the head, Mike. Romanians all too often don't actually understand that money CAN be made legally. Communism taught them that wealth was a crime anyway (unless your family name was Ceausescu), and after the so-called revolution...really a coup...only those with strong criminal tendencies and zero morals made any money. What else could they possibly think today?

Sadly, Romanians do not see the west as a place that developed itself the hard way, where most people work for an honest day's pay. Because of its relative wealth, communist brainwashing and their experiences since 1990, they have a perception of western Europe and indeed the west generally, as a place where everyone is just...well...simply born with the proverbial silver spoon! And given that only crooks make money after all (!!), then the west must be a great big criminal entity that is hell-bent on screwing Romania and other poor countries.

In this light the west, i.e. the EU, must demonstrate to Romania that it can indeed be trusted. It must show that Romania is being welcomed in as a fellow European state, and not part of a cynical plan to raid its very considerable natural resources. This trust is something that must be won. At present, even many highly educated Romanains are cynical in this regard, and why not?

The whole quick, i.e. easy profit mentality comes not so much from the concept of time as the concept of ease and simplicity. Under communism after all, people were spoon-fed crumbs of stale bread. As a logical corollary to this, the perception of the west as a richer entity, is of a place where people are spoon-fed rich cake. The concepts of work/reward, incentive and wealth-creation are - as is inevitable in the minds of those raised under strict communism - largely absent from the Romanian mentality.

Therefore, to the average Romanian, wealth is something you acquire, not create. It is something the west, and a small number of Romanians, have had for a long time and everyone, understandably, wants a piece. Romania, and this is understandable after half a century of oppression, is a country where in the minds of a great many people, illegal still does NOT equate with immoral. The law is something that is meant to screw you, not serve you, and so, if you can make money and cheat the law, great! If you are poor, it is because the system has completely screwed you. If you are rich, it is because you have got around the system. This is the thinking, and it is totally understandable given the history of the place. The notion of open-market economics in a democratic context is unknown.

As I have said in previous postings, Romanians have a very weak concept of economics. I am given to believe that business subjects are not taught in schools here, and that to many, commerce is still a dirty word.


Last edited by Bebsi on Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dracotei



Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had the discussion of "Should I move back home?..." with my cousins and a ton of other people in Romania countless times. It boils down to one thing. Unless you have enough money to buy a house/appartment cash and enough left over to bribe everybody and their mother in order to get a job, or even a permit (for electricity, phone or water on a new construction and a million other things), DON'T! This is what I hear from that side.

Now, I realise that after the so-called revolution a lot of bad business started in Romania. Drugs, prostitution and the crime associated with them took hope away from people. I also KNOW how bribe works wonders there. I lived in Bucharest for 14 years. To that add the fact that in communism, the mentality was "if you don't steal, you don't survive." My own father did it. He didn't actually steal. What he did was to buy and bring gasoline (benzina) with him on the company truck and sell it at black market selling prices in rural areas. He got caught and put in jail. A lot of people did those things at that time. That is how one survived. He finally decided that he couldn't live in a country that would not give him the opportunity to succeed. So, he ran over the border to Yugoslavia and eventually ended up in the U.S.

Also interesting is the fact that during my time people went to school to educate themselves, not because a degree would secure them a future. Unless you were a doctor, you really had no money. Ironically, the doctors didn't make money because they were paid well. They made money because every patient would bring them money, a pack of Kent cigarettes, imported coffee or chocloate, and some, who lived in the country, brought them eggs, live chickens or pure home made wine. You knew what your doctor wanted, and you never went empty handed. I went to the doctor last time I was there, post 1989. He was almost a hundred years old. As a matter of fact my aunt hadn't seen him since the 70s and thought he may have been dead already. He was able to find a small fake diamond in my ear, something the American doctors could not, or better yet, would not figure out for two years with all their technology. It was pretty funny. When I left, I tipped him. Why? Because that is just what you do there.

These days everyone is telling me that you can get a degree if you bribe your teachers. You really don't have to show up for classes, except on days you have exams. We have SOOOOO many lawyers in Romania; it's sick! Of course, they don't know jack s--- about law because they never went to class. In communism people gave theachers gifts all the time. My mother never did. I only brought my teacher a nice bouquet of flowers at the end of the semester. I had very good grades though because I liked school. Today, my cousin says that he can't pass some course in college because his teacher likes Johnny Black and he doesn't want to spend that kind of money on it. But! Here's what gets me. I never skipped class in the U.S. In Romania skipping, starting with the highschool years IS what one does.

As far as legality and morality go, in Romania we call what is currently in place "the law of the jungle". The ones who get rich, do so illegaly. I wanted at some point to go back and start a business and I was told that I was going to be "swallowed by the big sharks", mafia type guys, what we call "lumea interlopa". My father has tried to get back our 2 bedroom appartment in Berceni that was sold illegaly after the revolution. My uncle, who has travelled extensively under communism due to the fact that he was part of Ansamblu Doina, the biggest dance group, has a photo with Ceausescu dancing "Hora Unirii" - the unification song of Romania - and a engineering degree, could not get it back. He is a very intelligent man, but that didn't help him. My dad spend about 1500usd on lawyers and, legally the place is ours. No one had the right to sell it. However, there goes that magic word again, "bribe". Someone bribed someone after the revolution and people live in that place, people who not only paid money for the appartment, but also paid a bribe to get in it. The judge couldn't care less that it's my dad's place because she figures he's living in America, where money grows on trees. So to hell with justice!

Again, I appreciate the fact that you gentlemen are discussing these issues. I also wanted to thank Mike for making a list of his expenses. It helps me see what the situation is really like. I ask Romanians, but they tend to complain a lot, so it's difficult to make any decisions based on their opinions. I know I ramble, but I figured I'd share with you some very personal experiences so that you may get a better grasp of the Romanian mentality.

As far as me moving back goes, I know I will. It's just a matter of time. I still haven't figured out what I need in order to not only survive in my own country, but most importantly, to succeed. I know I couldn't steal a needle, so I'd actually have to do this the legal way. If anyone has any advice I'd be happy to take it.
Thank you
Chris
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Bebsi



Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958

PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently had the following discussion with a Romanian businessman:

"Why should I care about customer services in my organisation? What's this obsession with caring about the customer that you have in the west?"

"Well, in the west we care about the customer, because in a nutshell he's the mainstay of any business, whether a corner shop or a multinational corporation. We cannot have a business without him".

"Yes, I've heard all that rubbish before, but why is the customer important? In my business, I'm the only one who is important. The customer is the person that I screw as much as I can to make money from. He's an asswhole, why should I care?"

"Because if he chooses not to use your business, you then make nothing."

"No, no, he comes to me because he needs my business. If he didn't he wouldn't be in my shop. He is nothing, it's his money that I want and if he wants what I sell, he must pay me money, as much as I ask him for. In busines, you screw the customer as much as you can."

"Yes, but if you screw him, he won't come back with his business in future."

"So what? If he doesn't, it's his problem. Phuck him! Not my problem."

What can I say? This conversation, not quite verbatim but the essence is there, sums up the attitude of many Romanians to business.
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scot47



Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe Romania needs a few thousand enterprising immigrants. From Israel ? Pakistan ? Lebanon ? Bradford ?
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Bebsi



Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958

PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ironically, they would probably make it work!!!! Wink

They did in Ireland in the 80s, while everyone else was moaning about unemployment and the lack of opportunity, a load of immigrants came in and just got on with it. It was embarrassing, really.

Sadly, Romania is a bit more complex. Crying or Very sad
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dracotei



Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of things, and, I hope to God I'm not posting twice because I am at work and I accidentally closed the screen once.

First, the attitude you speak of, Bebsi, I personally believe we adopted from the French. In the late 19th century up until about halfway into the 20th century Romanian people, mostly the ones who lived in big cities and especially the ones who lived in Bucharest, as well as other Eastern nations (see Anna Karenina) imitated the French. French was the dipolmatic language and anyone educated spoke French. As I have said before, Bucharest was called the Little Paris of the East, and for good reason. Just look at Arcul de Triumf. To get a better grasp of the mentality I recommend reading Ion Luca Caragiale's "D-nul Goe" for those of you who are familiar with the language. In a nutshell this is a satirical play that exposes the lack of education of the new, so-called bourgeoisie. Caragiale also influenced Eugen Ionescu, one of the key authors in the theater of the absurd. If anyone read "Rhinoceros", a simple play about mass hysteria, the logic he uses rings Caragiale for who is familiar with his works. What I am trying to say is that it's not just about business, it's about everything. However, while studing French in high school in the U.S. I learned that the Frenchman's business attitude is : "I am doing you, the customer, a favor to have a business open here", as opposed to the American way "the customer is always right". This is how they do business in Romania. We do, however, also have the saying: "Clientul nostru, stapanul nostru" which sort of translates "our customer is our owner". That is a mot-a-mot translation though.

On a happier note, if you want to meet the pure Romanian people, go past Transilvanya, way up North, in what we call Maramures (Tara Motilor). You will discover another world with some of the kindest people you've ever met. That I guarantee you.

Second, Scot, it's ironic what you say about Israel, becuase the second most spoken language in that country is Romanian. I chatted with people who live there. Most of them left during communism because they had money and connections. Most of them weren't even Jewish, they were simply looking for a way out. Pretty interesting, huh! Unfortunately the only kind of business I've seen those people do with Romania is the trafficking of Moldavian girls, and I mean slave children (National Geographic - don't ask me the date because I don't rember). We need the kind of businessmen who leave our children alone. We had the same problem with the Turks, who claim to be Muslim. A lot of Romanian "women" 14 years old or so were lured to Turkey on promises that they would be waitresses. Then their passports were taken and they were exploited. There are a lot of good things we can learn form the West, and, so far only prostitution and drugs seem to be successful in Romania. That's what saddens me. As far as the Lebanese go, I've seen quite a few of them with businesses in Romania. The also have a good command of our language, aside from the fact that they can't pronounce "p". But I let that slide. Wink

Always a pleasure
Peace
Chris
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Bebsi



Joined: 07 Feb 2005
Posts: 958

PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly, much of what Dracotei says is true. Bribery is still a large part of life here. It is a vicious circle, in that most people are poor, and so take bribes in order to survive, but as long as the bribe mentality continues, economic development will be stifled, and people will remain poor!!

My wife used to be a school teacher here, and she tells me what most westerners would regard as horror stories about the educational system, but Romanians regard as normal. Ironically, the content of most curricula is actually very good, even by western European standards, at both second and third level. Tragically, many people never learn what is on the syllabus simply because cheating is a way of life in schools, as is bribery at third level. There is no central education testing authority or system here, and ongoing assessment by teachers is how students are evaluated. Not surprisingly, teachers vehemently oppose any change in the system, as the resulting bribes to pass students is their main source of income.

The end result? Many professionals here do not know the first thing about their chosen discipline. I have met Romanian lawyers who know less about the law than I...OK, I'm a law graduate in my own country...but this is Romanian law for Christ's sake!! On being pushed on the subject, they admitted that they knew little, saying "OK, I know nothing about the law, but hey, I don't need to as I paid my teachers in law school. Why should I bother studying?"

This is not, as many seem to think, a laughing matter. The appalling standards at some Romanian universities is not exactly a secret in western Europe, and these poor professional standards are seriously undermining external confidence in the economy. It also results in less respect for Romanian qualifications abroad, qualifications that are in themselves excellent...where earned, of course!! That being said, some institutions are much worse than others.

My own lawyer...who is in fact excellent...told me that he was once offered a teaching job at a university. He gave it up after a few months of speaking to empty classrooms, and sometimes even being blamed when students failed, not because of his failure to teach them, but because of his failure to accept bribes. In his opinion, an unhealthy percentage of lawyers here know absolutely nothing about the law.

Regarding the economy generally, yes indeed, drugs, prostitution and various other illegal activies are rampant. Romania is exceptionally low on crime in terms of personal safety, but a great deal of business activities are carried on by people of dubious character and reputation, to put it mildly. BMW 7-series and Mercedes 600 SELs are being driven around by young Manele-listening (don't ask, it's the worst attempt at "music" I have ever heard), tattooed, singlet-clad thugs in their early twenties, while many legitimate businessmen who work hard can be seen getting into modest, aging Daewoos, people with PhDs are found selling fruit at the market and doctors who save lives on a daily basis...many hospitals are excellent here, despite their modest funding...are being paid in low-figure hundreds rather than thousands of euro every month.

It is not all bad, far from it in fact. The new centre-right government under Traian Basescu appears to be, on the whole, genuinely committed to stamping out corruption and illegal businesses; there is still a lot of foreign investment coming in; there are many bright young Romanians who have genuinely-earned qualifications and a strong work-ethic; and last but certainly not least, it is an exquisitely beautiful country with the potential to become one of Europe's leading tourist destinations.

I for one have chosen to make Romania my home. Without strong confidence in its future, I wouldn't have done so. This doesn't mean I shouldn't spot the flaws or shout about them when I do. Ultimately, it is not Romania's flaws that have the geratest potential to drag the country down; it is rather, ironically enough, the fact that most Romanains see nothing other than the flaws. I believe that lack of confidence in themselves largely contributes to Romanians' practice of small-scale corruption and their tolerance of grand-scale corruption and mediocrity.

Lack of talent has never held anyone back. I mean, look at Pamela Anderson and Britney Spears!! Lack of confidence and ambition, however, have possibly killed some of the world's greatest talent.
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dracotei



Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The funny thing is that foreigners started "the bribe system" in universities during communism. We didn't have enough money to eat, let alone to bribe teachers. Most of them were from the Mid East, where, my understanding is, that if you fail one course, you have to repeat the whole year. Eventually, they learned that if they bribed their teachers, they could pass without having to go to class much. Greeks also have been known to frequent the university in Cluj for the same reasons, to become idiots with diplomas. Oh yeah, we have plenty of those too.
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