Job Discussion Forums

lou_la · Joined: 04 Oct 2005 Posts: 140 Location: Bristol

I've been offered two choices of contract by Hess - one just buxiban in taipei city, one just kindy (with much better hours) in taoyuan city.

Am I crazy to consider teaching kindy 9-5? I've never gone anywhere near small children before, really don't know what to expect. Need to decide on the lesser of two evils (bit of a strong term...). I need the extra hours really, and I've rather have free evenings than free mornings. Is this worth spending my days wiping snotty noses and dancing like a fool?

But on the legality aspect - how can Hess openly employ foreigners to teach kindy? I thought this was illegal?

Dr_Zoidberg · Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:00 pm Post subject:

It is illegal. I don't know exactly how HESS works, but they probably get you an ARC for one of their buxibans. Just remember if you get caught you will be deported.

Get an afternoon / evening gig at a buxiban, and make that your main source of income. Then look around for something legal to supplement it, or at least something you won't get caught doing, like private lessons.

markholmes · Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 661 Location: Wengehua

Zoidberg is correct, it's illegal, but on the other hand I loved teaching kindergarten, in fact that's all I did for two years. If I hadn't been able to do kindy I probably wouldn't have stayed in Taiwan as long as I did. If you are considering kindy, consider immersion, which is when you also have lunch with the kids and take them to the bathroom and that kind of thing. It's very rewarding.

But it is illegal and I did have to runaway in my socks once during a raid.

It all depends on whether you are prepared to take the risk. Most people on this forum, it appears, are not.

PaulJam · Joined: 01 Sep 2006 Posts: 13 Location: London, UK

wait, it's completely illegal for foreigners to teach English in Kindergarten? I'm planning on doing this through an agency (probably Saxon Court) so I thought it would be totally legitimate?

lou_la · Joined: 04 Oct 2005 Posts: 140 Location: Bristol

PaulJam, I'm confused too!

How can schools such as Hess and other well known chains still be operating well publicised immersion and bilingual kindys if it's illegal? Surely they'd just be shut down? They advertise openly for foreign staff - the boards here and elsewhere, their website has videos of foreigners saying how much they love teaching kindy. They have videos of the teaching classes!!

This is why I'm confused - if it's illegal, how on earth can they get away with this and continue to hire foreigners?

lou_la · Joined: 04 Oct 2005 Posts: 140 Location: Bristol

Oh, forgot to say - I emailed the recruiter and asked straight out if the kindy contract is illegal. Wonder what they say?!

markholmes · Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 661 Location: Wengehua

Lots of buxibans also run kindergartens. Teachers who teach in the kindergarten have their ARCs issued for work in the buxiban not for the kindergarten.

Yes, it is illegal to work in kindergartens, but it is done by many thousands of teachers, very few of whom ever get caught. Some of those get deported, most don't.

Most of the major companies (Kojen, Hess, Shane - which is part of Saxoncourt) operate kindergartens on this basis. Their ability to operate without interference is often to do with the amount of guanxi or connections a school owner has with the authorities.

I've known people who have worked in the same kindergaten for five years. On two occasions they were told to stay at home for the day because the authorities were coming (somebody tipped them off). Other than that they haven't had any trouble.

Yes it is illegal. but unlike Canada where the law is made to be adhered to, in most of Asia people find ways to get around it, if it is seen as inconvenient.

markholmes · Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 661 Location: Wengehua

PaulJam · Joined: 01 Sep 2006 Posts: 13 Location: London, UK

I feel like a rebel now.

markholmes · Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 661 Location: Wengehua

Do a search on kindergartens. Lots of people will tell you to steer clear of it because of legality issues. In the end it has to be your decision.

Hess, Shane and Kojen have all been raided at times, so just because it's a big company doesn't always mean you'll feel immune.

SanChong · Joined: 22 Nov 2005 Posts: 335

I'd agree with everything Mark Holmes said.

You have to be ready for things to be done a little differently out here.

The kindy situation is just one example. It's really pretty safe, overall.

The 60 day visitor visa (which we discuss often here) is another example.

The government doesn't always have systems that make sense. At the end of the day, however, it doesn't often directly affect your life here.

TaoyuanSteve · Joined: 05 Feb 2003 Posts: 1028 Location: Taoyuan

I'm glad that people in this thread have had the sense to realise that, yes, kindergarten teaching is illegal for foreign teachers but, in reality, many (probably most teflers) teach kindergarten at some point here. It's hard to explain to new comers, but law and legality in Taiwan has a different meaning than in our countries of origin. Laws and law makers here do not have the respect of the local populace that their counterparts would where we come from. Law makers here are part of a large slumbering bureaucracy that is way out of touch with reality. Laws are made almost to justify their existence. Some laws are good, but even the best laws are meaningless without enforcement. I remember a law made recently to address the problem of left lane bandits on the freeways driving in the passing lanes and impeding traffic flow. Think that law has done anything? The kindy law is even less effective. To the Chinese, laws such as this one are inconveniences to be worked around. The English kindergarten ban is a law that has been universally ignored. You see these schools operating openly, with large and splashy billboard ads on buildings and on the sides of buses. The chief of police in my town sends his kid to the kindy I now work at.

The law here is very strange. It takes living here a while and direct experience with the police and courts to realise how strange it really is. Enforcement is irregular and inconsistent at best and one's connections can enure that your business is never scrutinized.

An acquaintance of mine is a head foreign teacher for a Hess branch in Taoyuan city. She looked into the kindy issue. She was assured from very high in the organization that there was zero risk for foreign teachers working int heir kindy division. Not sure if it is the way their kindergartens are classified under the law or the connections a massive institution like Hess has with influential people. Still, I believe her when she says that their kindy teachers have nothing to worry about. Further, if you live outside of Taipei (eg Taoyuan), the risk of any trouble from authorities driops to zero.

Some notes if you wish to teach kindy:

Ask your employer what contingency plan they have in the event of a visit from authorities. Kindies often have gated entrances. They can delay the authorities long enough to get you out of the class. Often schools are informed ahead of time of visits from officials. You might get an afternoon off in such times.

Burden of proof in the law is ridiculous here. Basically, if authorities want to bust you for teaching in breach of your visa, they have to actually photograph you teaching or get you to sign an admission of guilt. Don't be caught teaching in a classroom or sign anything and you're fine.

Your ARC will likely list the name of a buxiban (which usually is in the same location as the kindy). So, being on property is no problem at any time. You are there for cram school business.

Don't worry to excess about strict interpretation of employment laws in your stay here. Use your common sense. Don't steal, don't murder, certainly don't try to deal in drugs. But, apart from that, don't worry about teaching kindy.

markholmes · Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 661 Location: Wengehua

Toe Save · Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:50 am Post subject:

If you do get busted, be sure to shout out as loud as you can for Ah-Bien's help. Especially for cameras.

How about this idea? Don't work for Kindies. Just say no. Deportation is something I take seriously. Why risk it for a yoyoban laoban who sees you only as a form of kuangkao (advertising)?

Work buxiban, or adults. Leave the puke and piddle mopping to others.

I was with The Tots for a cup of coffee. My idea of a good day was when Little Jerry 3 was the only one of the 5 to awake to a urine-soaked sleeping bag.

For what amounted to about 400NT an hour?

Those were the days my friend, I thought they'd never end....

Dr_Zoidberg · Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:33 am Post subject:

What you need to worry about is how much guanxi your laoban has with the authorities, how well the school is doing compared to its competition, and how much guanxi that competition has with the authorities.

A routine inspection is nothing to worry about. Your laoban will be tipped off ahead of time. Where the real danger lies is when the competition tips off the authorities. That's when they arrive with no notice and your chance of being caught is much higher.

Yes, most English teachers in Taiwan have done kindy at some point. I know I have, and I spent two hours every morning wondering if today was the day I would get caught. If you can live with the anxiety, and not care if you do get caught, deported, and banned from ever coming back, then go for it.