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no_exit
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 565
Location: Kunming
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 Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 8:00 am Post subject: |
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vik, I honestly don't care anymore what feeble excuses you want to use to go after me in the forums. By your logic I shouldn't even participate in this forum because I might expose myself, my employees, or my school. Heaven forbid we write about our experiences with others on an anonymous board (and despite your claims vik, I have remained completely anonymous in my posts. A post mentioning a person's nationality does not "out" them, or violate their privacy in any way. This girl is not the only Columbian on the planet, or even in Kunming, and despite what goes on in your head, Dave's ESL Cafe is not THAT important of an entity in the grand scheme of things). Your lame attempt at accusing me of "outing" people by mentioning their nationality is just that, lame, unnecessary, and uncalled for.
In any case, I'm not going to go on threadjacking Shan Shan's post by continuing this ridiculous argument with you. It is pretty obvious that you've had a bone to pick with me ever since the EF post, as you have continually attacked and derailed legitimate discussions on numerous posts that I have participated in. I don't know about you, but I'm getting tired of it, and I'd be willing to bet that others are also sick of getting their topics jacked by you and your need to argue with me. |
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BlakeS
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Xian
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:04 am Post subject: |
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We can let Shan Shan have his Canada bashing post back in a minute.
But first....
no_exit: Why do you and vik feel anonymity is so important? I've always felt the annoymous speaker has something to hide and is therefore much harder to take seriously.
Hi. I'm Blake. I'm Canadian (well....Torontonian - aka: Little New Yorkian). I'm 24. I'm an ESL teacher. I like long walks on a beach and candle light dinners. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 10:35 am Post subject: |
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well glad you chose to tell us that - if your ex-employers at Kid castle had given that information out - in a way that gave so many clues as to make your identificaction possible - without your permission - I would you have been less pleased - would you 
After all shan-shan's original post calls for us to examine the professionality of FT's - so why not call into question the professionality of employers who openly blab on an employees performance on a public forum - while giving away enough information to make identification of the employee in question possible - seems to me that breeches professional standard could well be involved in both cases  |
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no_exit
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 565
Location: Kunming
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| I don't really think it is all that important either Blake, afterall, I don't have anything to hide. I just don't like being accused of doing something horribly wrong when I did nothing but remark about how good a non-native speaking employee I have at my school is. I didn't even "provide enough information to make identification possible," as vik claims (he has no idea how many foreigners there are in Kunming, and I do not believe that a person's nationality and sex are "identifying details," as vik claims). He is simple engaged in a little crusade to destroy my reputation on these forums, and is grasping for any ammunition to use against me. |
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BlakeS
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Xian
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
well glad you chose to tell us that - if your ex-employers at Kid castle had given that information out - in a way that gave so many clues as to make your identificaction possible - without your permission - I would you have been less pleased - would you
After all shan-shan's original post calls for us to examine the professionality of FT's - so why not call into question the professionality of employers who openly blab on an employees performance on a public forum - while giving away enough information to make identification of the employee in question possible - seems to me that breeches professional standard could well be involved in both cases |
We state public opinions of our schools on an almost daily basis. I don't see any harm in our schools stating their opinions about us. I named my school by name and location. Others have made comments, with-holding names, and names have been later asked for.
Public forums are a double edged sword. We have to be prepared to take what we give. We have just as much right, and are just as open, to be praised or critisized publicly as we do to/for our schools.
To both sides, vik: I don't think others are as concerned as you are about their "identity being known". I would assume that people here already know who I am. And even if they did, their knowledge would be, "Yeah. I know him. He's the tall, skinny, Canadian guy.". There's no problem in that. You may be concerned about your privacy - and that's okay - but most others don't even really think about it.
no_exit: Perhaps the person you're referring to is similar to vik, in that she is a very private person and doesn't want people to know where she works and/or lives. If that's the case, then the only information that should be given is "an employee at my school". If she doesn't care - then she doesn't care. Vik, if she doesn't care, then there isn't a need to point out the fault in something that isn't wrong.
True enough? |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| We state public opinions of our schools on an almost daily basis. I don't see any harm in our schools stating their opinions about us. |
Schools aren't people Blake - schools are social institutions/public employers that are open to public scrutiny - whereas people - going about their normal daily lives, in a normal manner -have a natural right to privacy. When I last checked China FT's were still classified as people  -
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| Vik, if she doesn't care, then there isn't a need to point out the fault in something that isn't wrong |
Wow the perfect excuse for a whole hatfull of wrongs - you know, like kid castle did you wrong only because you actually cared enough to object about their activities. Blake what a simple world you seem to come from |
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BlakeS
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Xian
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| When I last checked China FT's were still classified as people |
We're getting there. "I have a dream...."
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| Wow the perfect excuse for a whole hatfull of wrongs - you know, like kid castle did you wrong only because you actually cared enough to object about their activities. Blake what a simple world you seem to come from |
You seem to have misunderstood what I said. I was simply saying that, for this specific situation, if this girl doesn't have a problem with no_exit making a comment about her (as an example to reiterate a point) then there isn't a problem in making the comment. If she *does* care, then there is a problem. That concern, or lack thereof, is for her to make mention of....not you. I'm sorry if that comes of as abrasive or rude but it's the truth. You are fighting for something that you, personally, think is wrong but .... may not be.
Kidcastle treated me (and many others) very poorly. Very. I objected to their actions (towards me) and they took that as a insult to their integrity or something. I'll never know. But the point is - *I* objected. I didn't ask anyone to speak on my behalf nor would I want anyone to.
Overall, my interpretation (and yours) of "wrong", differs from others. Obviously, no_exit feels he has done nothing wrong (I don't either). You do. You don't know if the girl he made the comment about thinks he did something wrong. Don't expect that your and her opinions are the same!
If you'd like to continuing debating this, please send me a private msg. We've kind of hijacked a post here. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| I was simply saying that, for this specific situation |
This specific situation is a very simple example of the principle of the right to common privacy being threatened by an employer - a person who (in a perfect world) should be helping protect our rights - not blabbing off in a public forum on our perceived short-comings, while giving away rather specific details that could reveal our identities 
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| if this girl doesn't have a problem with no_exit making a comment about her (as an example to reiterate a point) then there isn't a problem in making the comment. If she *does* care, then there is a problem. |
How will one ever know there is a possible problem if one doesn't ask that specific person - ya know an act of common courtesy from employer to employee (and this employer is American - so she should know better) - so if the boss really does want to write about you they could try to omit blatant clues to identity - or even better, ask permission in the first place |
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no_exit
Joined: 12 Oct 2004
Posts: 565
Location: Kunming
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
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| I was simply saying that, for this specific situation |
This specific situation is a very simple example of the principle of the right to common privacy being threatened by an employer - a person who (in a perfect world) should be helping protect our rights - not blabbing off in a public forum on our perceived short-comings, while giving away rather specific details that could reveal our identities
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| if this girl doesn't have a problem with no_exit making a comment about her (as an example to reiterate a point) then there isn't a problem in making the comment. If she *does* care, then there is a problem. |
How will one ever know there is a possible problem if one doesn't ask that specific person - ya know an act of common courtesy from employer to employee (and this employer is American - so she should know better) - so if the boss really does want to write about you they could try to omit blatant clues to identity - or even better, ask permission in the first place |
And how would you know whether I asked permission or not vik? You just assume all sorts of things because they fit in better with your arguments, but that doesn't make them true, or you right. For all you know, she was in the office with me when I posted that.
You've never given me a straight reason as to how nationality is a "blatant clue to identity," either, but forget about it, you obviously seem to think that Kunming is some backwater with about three foreigners who all work for my school, so just go on making your assumptions vik. I don't know where you live, so maybe you're just seeing things from a completely skewed perspective, but I've met people here from countries that I never thought I'd meet ONE person from, much less twenty. Assumptions assumptions ...
As for "blabbing off about her shortcomings," I'm sorry vik, but I identified her as a non-native speaker, which I don't perceive as a shortcoming (if you think that being a non-native speaker of English is shortcoming, then that says way more about you than it does her). I said she was a great teacher and better for kindergarteners than the native speaking teacher I had. How is this "blabbing about her shortcomings?" The fact that she is not a native English speaker is not a secret vik, so I fail to see how I've violated her privacy in any way, and so does she.
Yeah, that's right, she knows about this post, and she doesn't see what the big deal is. Get off my case, ok vik? |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| Well by getting on your case - we can finaly see that you have done the right thing and informed your employee of your indiscretion - an act that gives me some confidence that you'll think twice about blabbing off in a similar manner another time. Ashame it apparently took me so many posts to get you to do something about this situation |
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BlakeS
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 87
Location: Xian
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| vikdk wrote: |
| Well by getting on your case - we can finaly see that you have done the right thing and informed your employee of your indiscretion - |
It wasn't an indiscretion!!!! He just stated that VERY clearly!!!!
(Who is this guy? Is he always like this?!)
Let's break it down:
no_exit: ...so this columbian girl...
vik: COLUMBIAN?!?! YOU JUST GAVE AWAY HER IDENTITY!
no_exit: huh?
vik: Now they know who she is! THEY! This girl will be very mad with you!
no_exit: ...still not following you here....
Blake: Me too. I'm trying to see what the problem is but coming up short.
no_exit's columbian friend: Yeah. Me too. I don't get it. Does he have something against Columbian women?
vik: Columbian girl...you have been indescressed!!!
Columbian girl: I have?
no_exit and Blake: She has?
Blake (silently): What's indescressed?
vik: CAN'T YOU SEE?!?! THEY KNOW!!!
etcetcetcetcetcetcetc
Ok. That was fun. Back to work, all. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:45 am Post subject: |
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Blake - your knowledge of professional ethics is just astounding - I gasp in astonishment - did you graduate from the English Gibson School of Logic and Forum Posting.
Heres a couple of teasers for your astute brain
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| Yeah, that's right, she knows about this post |
how you reckon she found out - did no-exit tell her or did she find out in another way - and when did no_exit first talk to her about it. (Maybe pondering over these questions - while both thinking of the novelty factor of being a female Columbian FT in Kunming and a definition of the word indiscrete - could be a helpfull pointer when trying to visualise any unprofessional acts commited in this little episode)
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| and she doesn't see what the big deal is. |
well just because others dont recognise the abuse of normal employer/employee confidentiality as being a big deal - why should those who think otherwise and who value professional standards be silent - recognise your rights and shout out loud |
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TEAM_PAPUA
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1679
Location: HOLE
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:16 am Post subject: * |
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| True that in many places, an "English" face seems more important than actual English ability. (Face is what matters in Chinese culture, after all...) |
Clearly, you have no idea what 'face' means in the Asian social context. |
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