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Topo Gigo
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 57
Location: Japan
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 Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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I think both sides of this argument stand to a degree. Obviously there is a correct or standardised English up to a point, as seen in written texts. There is a lot more lee way with spoken english due to accents and what-not, but if you were to write an essay/thesis the way you spoke, your examiner would rightly pick you up on it and accuse you of being badly educated and illiterate, and tell you to re-write it with the correct grammar and spelling.
however, there are differences depending on where you are, for instance, many accademic journals will insist in the 'American' spelling (which in my book is the wrong spelling!), but it's correct over there. Also, I've heard Americans be very confused with the phrase 'I'm going to have a bath', because they used 'going to take a bath'.
So, you're all right. Pat yourselves on the back. But you're also all wrong - there are very few absolutes in this world. As far as I'm concerened, this isn't a topic which I find worthy of arguing over the grey areas, so I shall leave yall to it.
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Topo Gigo wrote: |
I think both sides of this argument stand to a degree. Obviously there is a correct or standardised English up to a point, as seen in written texts. There is a lot more lee way with spoken english due to accents and what-not, but if you were to write an essay/thesis the way you spoke, your examiner would rightly pick you up on it and accuse you of being badly educated and illiterate, and tell you to re-write it with the correct grammar and spelling.
however, there are differences depending on where you are, for instance, many accademic journals will insist in the 'American' spelling (which in my book is the wrong spelling!), but it's correct over there. Also, I've heard Americans be very confused with the phrase 'I'm going to have a bath', because they used 'going to take a bath'.
So, you're all right. Pat yourselves on the back. But you're also all wrong - there are very few absolutes in this world. As far as I'm concerened, this isn't a topic which I find worthy of arguing over the grey areas, so I shall leave yall to it.
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Let's go even a step further. If you tried to publish a text in journals, the first thing to know would be the journal's standards for writing and not just the spelling rules, especially in scientific ones.
There are always conventions that we must follow.
So you're right. There is no point in discussing this any further. (Oops! did I start a sentence with SO?) |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005
Posts: 3898
Location: Pittsburgh
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Are you from Texas? Are you upset because the DOS doesn't let you teach the "Y'all" form in class? |
If you are teaching English in Texas it might be appropriate for a teacher to teach you to recognize "y'all" and other commonly used phrases in Texas. Of course there are many people in Texas who do not use y'all. People from cities such as Houston often don't speak like that. |
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dajiang
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 663
Location: Guilin!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:34 am Post subject: |
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Isn't the difference between a) "go to the hospital" and b) "go to hospital" that in a) we're talking about the building, and in b) we're talking about the institution?
So in a) you might go to the hospital to visit a friend, or to make a phonecall or something. While in b) you've got to see a doctor, or have an operation.
Same difference for "go to school" and "go to the school".
Dajiang |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| dajiang wrote: |
Isn't the difference between a) "go to the hospital" and b) "go to hospital" that in a) we're talking about the building, and in b) we're talking about the institution?
So in a) you might go to the hospital to visit a friend, or to make a phonecall or something. While in b) you've got to see a doctor, or have an operation.
Same difference for "go to school" and "go to the school".
Dajiang |
Jesus, this is why I didn't want to get into the whole grammar thing. The article determines the context... obviously. |
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wildchild
Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 519
Location: Puebla 2009 - 2010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 1:45 am Post subject: |
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Topo,
I thank you for bringing some moderation to this discussion  Your words of wisdom are very refreshing. There are very few absolutes in this world, deep breath, yoga ohm, ohm, ohm.
You may feel that this isn't a topic worthy of arguing over the grey areas and that you can leave this to "y'all" (don't think I didn't catch that  ); however, as soon as you posted, you entered, there is no leaving. Your room is the third door to the left, make yourself comfortable.
'American' spelling is hardly grammar.
Pat yourself on the head. 
I never saw an American take a bath anywhere; I saw em go in and I saw em come out. That bath never left.
You can have a bath, I'll have an IPA (not International Phonetic Alphabet, but the other one). |
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Topo Gigo
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 57
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| wildchild wrote: |
Topo,
I thank you for bringing some moderation to this discussion Your words of wisdom are very refreshing.
You're very welcome
There are very few absolutes in this world, deep breath, yoga ohm, ohm, ohm.
Hey man, don't fight it. Don't think your cynical rolling eyes are fooling anyone. You can do it, close your eyes, be at one with the language. It's the way to esl enlightenment.
You may feel that this isn't a topic worthy of arguing over the grey areas and that you can leave this to "y'all" (don't think I didn't catch that ); however, as soon as you posted, you entered, there is no leaving. Your room is the third door to the left, make yourself comfortable.
Damn.. trapped. *shakes fist in angry manner*
'American' spelling is hardly grammar.
No, but I was talking about the English language, which is more than just the grammar
Pat yourself on the head.
I will. Thank you. And I'll rub my stomach at the same time...
I never saw an American take a bath anywhere; I saw em go in and I saw em come out. That bath never left.
I did, the thieving ****!
You can have a bath, I'll have an IPA (not International Phonetic Alphabet, but the other one).
What? An International Psychoanalytical Association?? How very peculiar
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Sorry - don't know how to quote in chunks, so have replied within the quote.
Oh, and whilst I'm here, what's with the American speak 'I study math' or 'Write me'. It's 'I study maths' and 'write to me'. I don't think this is another case of one poorly educated American, as this seems quite ubiquitous in US writing. Is this a case of differences in the 'standard english' between two places?
Oh lord. I'm well and truely sucked in now  |
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wildchild
Joined: 14 Nov 2005
Posts: 519
Location: Puebla 2009 - 2010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Dajian,
Yeah, that is the same way that I would interpret it; well done (I'm not sure if I have the authority to say that, but, there it is).
Topo,
Brilliant post!!!!
| Quote: |
| what's with the American speak 'I study math' or 'Write me'. |
I'm not so sure how to respond to the "maths" question, other than that we see is as singular. The "write me" is an interesting one. A similar example is "He gave her flowers." Y'all don't say that either? |
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newtefler
Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm not a linguist, so my humble opinion may not count for much, however... My understanding is that Standard English refers to what was once known as The Queen's English. In reality it is not used, for example, "I was talking at the telephone", most people say "on the phone". I think general usage varies greatly from Standard English and .. horror of horrors :0) the language used in the UK has been greatly influenced by American English. Re Dutch English.. most Dutch people I have spoken to have had a slight American accent and American usage. To throw a spanner in the works I have always found the Swiss to speak excellent English :0) |
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Topo Gigo
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 57
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| wildchild wrote: |
I'm not so sure how to respond to the "maths" question, other than that we see is as singular. The "write me" is an interesting one. A similar example is "He gave her flowers." Y'all don't say that either? |
But it's 'mathematics' -plural, there being many branches of maths an all. And by Y'all do you mean Brtis? What do we say? I can't think of another way to say 'he gave her flowers'. (well, obviously 'he presented her with...' or 'flowers were given to her by him' but none that you would say in preference)
Newtefler
I think 'the Queen's English is more to do with accent and dialect, and speaking with a peg on ones nose.., but you're right, English is influenced by outside factors and evolves. Standard English today is certainly different to that of 100 years ago. However it does have rules, and i think knowing enough about those rules allows you to know when they can be bent, hence we are now free to boldly go and split our infinitives willy-nilly, and I've heared some camps are now ok with starting sentences with But.. or So.. (so I think you're ok with that one Deconstructor - however 'let's go even a step further' - come on, call yourself an english teacher??  )
But, the sentence 'Less people know why this sentence is incorrect than really ought to' is clearly wrong (sadly not factually) and always will be, and even though everyone flagrantly breaks this rule, it will not become acceptable english  (sorry - pet peeve!)
Anyway, I really don't care for this topic, and the fact that I'm sat here writing about it shows that somewhere in 'real land' I have a lot of work to do.. so I'm off to try and tunnel out of this room (it's feeling more padded cell-like by the minute!) that wildchild has so thoughtfuly built for me....
ta ta |
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isanity
Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 179
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Topo Gigo wrote: |
But it's 'mathematics' -plural, there being many branches of maths an all.
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No. Mathematics is a singular uncountable noun in every major dialect of English, including British English. (Mathematics is interesting, not are interesting).
| Topo Gigo wrote: |
But, the sentence 'Less people know why this sentence is incorrect than really ought to' is clearly wrong (sadly not factually) and always will be, and even though everyone flagrantly breaks this rule, it will not become acceptable english (sorry - pet peeve!) |
No. 'Less' in reference to a smaller number has an entirely respectable pedigree going back all the way to Old English, notwithstanding the efforts of self-appointed 'grammarians' in the 18th-century who wanted English to be more like Latin.
If you have no interest in or knowledge of a subject, a little discretion is advisable. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| isanity wrote: |
| 'Less' in reference to a smaller number has an entirely respectable pedigree going back all the way to Old English, notwithstanding the efforts of self-appointed 'grammarians' in the 18th-century who wanted English to be more like Latin. |
Could you please cite a specific source for the fact that the fewer/less dichotomy was inspired by Latin grammar?
We know about split infinitives and ending sentences with prepositions. But how exactly is your example of fewer/less a result of grammarians wanting English to be more like Latin? |
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isanity
Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 179
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| For basis of 18th century grammars: Millward, A Biography of the English Language p. 242. For origins of the distinction: Columbia Journalism Review September/October 2005. Latin provided the 'need' for a rule, without necessarily determining the content of the rule. |
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Topo Gigo
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 57
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| isanity wrote: |
No. Mathematics is a singular uncountable noun in every major dialect of English, including British English. (Mathematics is interesting, not are interesting).
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Yeah, wot eva... we invented the language, and we were here first so I say it's maths!!!  |
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jonniboy
Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 751
Location: Panama City, Panama
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| JZer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Are you from Texas? Are you upset because the DOS doesn't let you teach the "Y'all" form in class? |
If you are teaching English in Texas it might be appropriate for a teacher to teach you to recognize "y'all" and other commonly used phrases in Texas. Of course there are many people in Texas who do not use y'all. People from cities such as Houston often don't speak like that. |
It is sometimes useful to know such regional usages (grammatically correct or not) in Northern Ireland and Scotland we often use "yous" as the second person plural. While not standard English it does make it much easier for the speaker to distinguish whether one person or many is being spoken to. I had a similar issue with my Spanish teacher who kept correcting my technically incorrect Valencia influenced pronunciation. I politely but firmly told him to stop as I'd be spending my time in the Valencia region and therefore being understood by locals took priority over some textbook theory. |
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