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denise · Joined: 23 Apr 2003 Posts: 3419 Location: finally home-ish

I hate to admit it, but sometimes I think I'm a closet prescriptivist. "Me and my mate" does grate on my ears!

In class I would teach both forms and make darn sure to explain the difference: "correct" (in quotes as always, because who defines correctness?!?! I have my own definitions, hence the prescriptivist tendencies, but they are by no means universal) and "common." Still, every time I heard the "common" form, I would probably cringe.

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Stephen Jones · Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124

Me and him (the object pronouns) are use as the emphatic forms, equivalent to "moi" or "lui" in French.

That explains the use of 'me:' , 'him:' in dialogues as in the first post in the thread.

It also explains why we say "it's me" and not "it's I", though the really interesting thing is why we say "it'sme" and not "I'm me".

There is a consistent grammatical explanation for this, though I'll leave it for you to find out.

When we come to "Me and my mate" versus "My friend and I" we have a confllict, since one grammatical rule (that of the emphactic pronoun as in French "Mon ami et moi") requires me, and the other grammatical rule requires the subject pronoun. In general "My frined and I" is considered the correct form and "Me and my friend" is considered at best colloquial, if not sub-standard.

"Between you and I" breaks both rules, and is in my opinion an absolute barbarity, worse so when it comes as a 'correction' to "between you and me". However there is a tendecny for this hyper-correction to get stronger precisely because of its use by lower middle-class women, who are,unfortunatley the real movers of language change.[/code]

dmb · Joined: 12 Feb 2003 Posts: 8397

stephen: intersting post. Can you clarify or back up why lower middle class women are the real movers in language change

rogan · Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 416 Location: at home, in France

"denise and me didn't go to the bar mast night, but I got p*ssed anyway"

That has to be the best 200th post EVER !!

rogan · Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Posts: 416 Location: at home, in France

Or even the two hundredth and oneth !!

denise · Joined: 23 Apr 2003 Posts: 3419 Location: finally home-ish

Denise was sorely tempted to go to the bar last night, but she resisted.

How about referring to oneself in the third person? Does that annoy anyone? Denise thinks it is terribly, almost unforgiveably, obnoxious, but she likes to do it anyway.

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Capergirl · Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2003 12:15 am Post subject:

Hey Denise, did you ever see that Seinfeld episode about the guy who always talked in the third person? George thought that it was cool, so he started doing it ("George is gettin' upset!"), and of course, it annoyed all of his friends. Great show, that Seinfeld. Laughing

My daughter sometimes refers to herself in the third person. It seems odd, but I just figure she is experimenting with language (she's 3). Confused

denise · Joined: 23 Apr 2003 Posts: 3419 Location: finally home-ish

Will. · Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 783 Location: London Uk

reference to working class women.
popularised in the forties by Flanagan and Allen. 'Me and my shadow' popular entertanment.
and one for the anklebiters, Me and my teddy bear.

Stephen Jones · Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124

None of my socio-linguistic textbooks with me at the momentt, since it is a good ten years since I studied the field in depth.

I think Labob had done some research into the matter. The basic reason is that you are only going to change the way you were brought up to speak if you are unsatisfied with it, and being dissatisfied with the way you speak is the same as being dissatisfied with your social position.

Lower middle class women are those with the highest aspirations to upward social mobility, and this is reflected in the way they ape what they consider to be the way of speaking of the social class above them.

And, of course, ther's becomes the norm which the working class will consider posh.