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Antonimus Prime
Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 18
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 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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What you guys didn't know that crime here is always from foreigners! [/sarcasm]
I deal with the situation here with apathy. Japanese that won't accept you, and other foreigners that are too insecure to look in your direction. I gave up a long time ago and will enjoy Japan as best I can in my own way. With or without dealing with all the baggage. |
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dove
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Posts: 271
Location: USA/Japan
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| I don't think Japan will ever be a multi-cultural country. I think the Japanese government will have to establish a stong "guest-worker" program to deal with the declining population and the corresponding declining number of Japanese workers. Many of these workers might stay on with permanent visas. But I doubt very many will become Japanese citizens. The government won't encourage them to apply for citizenship And I doubt that many foreign workers would ever want to pledge allegiance to the Japanese nation. Say what you will about the USA, but the lines to become American citizens are as long as they ever were. |
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JaredW
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 105
Location: teaching high school in Sacramento, CA, USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| Zzonkmiles wrote: |
Here's an interesting article on this subject: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14640269/site/newsweek/
I personally think Japan's transition to a multicultural country will be very, very slow. Even though the Japanese are very polite, there is a definite sense that there is a limit on as to how "welcome" you are here. Once you cease being a tourist and start being a long-term resident, these barriers can be very daunting.
Also, Japanese is a very difficult language for Westerners to learn simply because it's so different from Indo-European languages. I'm not sure how many of them are willing to put in the time and effort necessary to learn how to read and write the various scripts. Trying to get by with broken Japanese will not do much for your quality of life, nor will it help you "assimilate" into Japanese culture. |
I don't know. The piece from MSNBC and Newweek is a non-starter reflective of poor reporting and coming to misguided conclusions. To me, the bigger picture is the fact that the industrialied nations that have been economic superpowers (Japan, US, Western Europe, UK) for the latter part of the 21st century have all of a sudden realized the quandry of low birth rate. If that trend continues, then those countries will not have the skilled labor to maintain the ecnomic output that they previously achieved.
So, instead of changing their business models, economic models or even political models, they want to keep the same business model but with decreasing population while desiring to maintain the high quality of living that they have experienced before.
So, they allow immigration en masse from 3rd world countries (non-pc) to do the jobs that will allow them to maintain their economic output. Forget companies reinventing themselves or being on the cutting edge of technological advances, rather have the other people come and do our services for a fraction of the cost.
In my opinion, that is tantamount to slavery because the plantation owner (i.e. business hegemony) grows fat off the backs of an underpaid "hard-working" labor class.
Then, they complain that the laborer and their communities cause problems, fail to assimilate, or perform any tradition or practice that was normal back in the countries from which they came.
So, that is my opinion. The piece as technically correct with wrong conclusions being made. I like to read The Economist however I disagree with globalization of the economy. The result of a globalization of the economy is the mean norming of wealth, income, and living conditions. Already, the engineering field in our country (US) is filled with many foreigners despite the fact that universities are pumping out American-born engineers. The fact is the foreigner that speaks English will do the same job for less. The same is happening to the medical field. I am not a nationalist, but a country needs to have a self-sustaining, robust economy. How many of you know people who build cars? computers? make textiles? |
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Tottori-Dood
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:53 am Post subject: |
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I pay taxes here thus making it as much my country as any Japanese person walking the street.
I'm from Toronto. In Toronto only a totally uneducated moron hick would suggest that a person that is not white is not Canadian.
When I stop paying my taxes here it will no longer be my country. To say we are guests in their country is exactly the attitude that leads to racism. There is a very large Japanese population in Vancouver BC. Suggest to one of them that Canada is not their Country and see how they take that.
Should they become multicultural? Yes, if not to cure racism then to get a little bit of genetic mixing happening so the teeth and pigeon toed problem gets fixed. |
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luckbox
Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 180
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:41 am Post subject: |
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| Tottori-Dood wrote: |
| I pay taxes here thus making it as much my country as any Japanese person walking the street. |
Not so, Dood. It is not just as much your country, taxes or no taxes. Firstly, your visa was granted to you as a privlege, not a right. Be thankful for that. Secondly, I suspect you are not a landed immigrant or citizen of Japan, in which case, you are very much a guest. Japan owes you nothing. The country grants you permission to work here. The fact that you pay taxes is somewhat irrelevant. The argument could be made that you pay taxes because while you are a guest here, you enjoy the many benefits of Japan's public infrastructure, transportation, and whatnot.
| Tottori-Dood wrote: |
| When I stop paying my taxes here it will no longer be my country. |
It never was your country, so you're argument has no leg to stand on.
| Tottori-Dood wrote: |
| To say we are guests in their country is exactly the attitude that leads to racism. |
How so? I don't follow your logic here.
| Tottori-Dood wrote: |
| Should they become multicultural? Yes, if not to cure racism then to get a little bit of genetic mixing happening so the teeth and pigeon toed problem gets fixed. |
Now if this isn't a tad racist, I'm not sure what is. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Not so, Dood. It is not just as much your country, taxes or no taxes. Firstly, your visa was granted to you as a privlege, not a right. Be thankful for that. Secondly, I suspect you are not a landed immigrant or citizen of Japan, in which case, you are very much a guest. |
I don't see any guest visas being issued, so I take exception to those who want to designate those who marry locals and raise children here as 'guests'. The US as an example, has alien resident status as well as a guest worker program and there is a distinction made between the two.
| Quote: |
To say we are guests in their country is exactly the attitude that leads to racism.
How so? I don't follow your logic here. |
Because people (both some Japanese and foreigners) often want to use this 'guest' designation as the reason that we shouldn't complain and if we don't like some of the racist and exclusionary policies practiced here, we should return to our 'home' countries. |
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luckbox
Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 180
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:45 am Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
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| Not so, Dood. It is not just as much your country, taxes or no taxes. Firstly, your visa was granted to you as a privlege, not a right. Be thankful for that. Secondly, I suspect you are not a landed immigrant or citizen of Japan, in which case, you are very much a guest. |
I don't see any guest visas being issued, so I take exception to those who want to designate those who marry locals and raise children here as 'guests'. The US as an example, has alien resident status as well as a guest worker program and there is a distinction made between the two. |
I don't really follow your point. Because the visas issued aren't called "guest" visas, therefore, non-citizens of Japan are not guests? Moreover, I never was referring to foreigners married to Japanese, raising kids in the country. I was replying to Dood's initial comment (he made no reference to being married or having kids here) about being equal to Japanese citizens simply by virtue of paying taxes. To which I still say, nonsense.
Even foreigners who have wives and kids in Japan are still guests of the country, unless they've filed for citizenship - even though their spouses and kids are not. Whether this is right or wrong - I leave to those who are in this category. I have no Japanese wife or kids, and I have no plan of becoming a citizen of Japan. Thus, I am a privleged guest, and I'm thankful for being allowed into the country to work and live as such. |
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Tottori-Dood
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| luckybox wrote: |
| Japan owes you nothing |
Never said it did.
| luckybox wrote: |
| The fact that you pay taxes is somewhat irrelevant |
I don't share your feelings.
| luckybox wrote: |
| It never was your country, so you're argument has no leg to stand on. |
I consider somebody in Canada working on a work visa and paying taxes more Canadian the some welfare leach in Canada. But I will check myself next time and use your logic as an excuse to treat somebody in this position as an outsider next time I go back home. Thank you for your brilliant enlightenment.
| luckybox wrote: |
| How so? I don't follow your logic here |
not so fast are we?
| luckybox wrote: |
| Now if this isn't a tad racist, I'm not sure what is |
And if I say that Brit's have bad teeth, or that Canadians always say eh? after sentences, am I racist? they do.... it's a general observation and a stereotype meant to bring a bit of humor to the post. I didn't realize you were so sensitive and politically correct...so sorry. |
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luckbox
Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 180
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Tottori-Dood wrote: |
| luckybox wrote: |
| The fact that you pay taxes is somewhat irrelevant |
I don't share your feelings.
| luckybox wrote: |
| It never was your country, so you're argument has no leg to stand on. |
I consider somebody in Canada working on a work visa and paying taxes more Canadian the some welfare leach in Canada. But I will check myself next time and use your logic as an excuse to treat somebody in this position as an outsider next time I go back home. Thank you for your brilliant enlightenment.
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What you think about your own home country's immigration policy or welfare recipients has zero to do with the issue at hand. None. You made an eroneous claim that paying taxes in Japan as a foreigner on a work visa makes you an equal citizen. Not only is it wrong, but the fact that you believe it demonstrates a kind of foreigner arrogance all too common within our community. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Tottori-Dood wrote:
| Quote: |
| I consider somebody in Canada working on a work visa and paying taxes more Canadian the some welfare leach in Canada. |
Well, that's a personal opinion, and you have your right to it, but it is irrelevant to what an immigration bureaucrat thinks. This means a total roadblock in trying to discuss matters.
Tottori-Dood wrote:
| Quote: |
| I pay taxes here thus making it as much my country as any Japanese person walking the street. |
Here is another false belief. Just because one pays taxes, you are not necessarily entitled to everything that "any Japanese person" is. So, paying taxes does not make it your country.
Can you vote?
Can you be elected into office?
Can you join the Self-defense Forces?
No on all three, but yes for Japanese citizens.
Do you have to renew your right to stay here?
Yes for all foreigners except a privileged few (like those on PR, and even those have some restrictions).
Are you restricted from leaving the country and returning?
Yes for foreigners, because you need a reeentry permit which has a time limit based on your visa (or PR status).
No for Japanese, as long as they hold a valid passport. |
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Like a Rolling Stone
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 872
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| why do people always say Brits have bad teeth? |
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Like a Rolling Stone
Joined: 27 Mar 2006
Posts: 872
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
Just because one pays taxes, you are not necessarily entitled to everything that "any Japanese person" is. So, paying taxes does not make it your country.
Can you vote?
Can you be elected into office?
Can you join the Self-defense Forces?
No on all three, but yes for Japanese citizens.
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this is only true for Japanese over the age of twenty. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Like a Rolling Stone wrote: |
| why do people always say Brits have bad teeth? |
Because compared to the gleaming white platicised orthidontistry that took hold of the US decades ago, they did.
I think the rumors started from the 1940's. British people tend to have straight gleaming chompers now as well, except me. I kept my removable brace in my pocket for 2 years. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:43 am Post subject: |
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luckbox posted
| Quote: |
| Even foreigners who have wives and kids in Japan are still guests of the country, unless they've filed for citizenship |
Uh, as I stated earlier, I don't use this 'guest' designation for alien residents in the US, which permanent residents in Japan would be closest to in status. As to the other foreigners here on up to 3 year work visas, I guess in a sense they are guest workers, not just guests.
Now why this would give them no rights to complain at all, in my opinion, you still haven't answered that very well.  |
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luckbox
Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 180
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
luckbox posted
| Quote: |
| Even foreigners who have wives and kids in Japan are still guests of the country, unless they've filed for citizenship |
Uh, as I stated earlier, I don't use this 'guest' designation for alien residents in the US, which permanent residents in Japan would be closest to in status. As to the other foreigners here on up to 3 year work visas, I guess in a sense they are guest workers, not just guests.
Now why this would give them no rights to complain at all, in my opinion, you still haven't answered that very well. |
Guest workers can compalin all they want, and they do have legal avenues and labour laws to assist them if needed. But guest workers are not citizens of the country simply by virtue of paying taxes, so they really have no right to expect equal treatment, nor do they have the right to dictate which cultural/legal norms are good for the country, and which aren't. Invariably those complaints from foreigners tend to be ethnocentric in nature, implying that Japan needs to change and be more like the complainant's culture. Yes, I see all sorts of issues Japan could do a better job on, but that's for Japanese citizens to decide. Part of this is about respect, but another part is about pragmatism and keeping your sanity. I've seen so many fellow foreigners literally burn out after obsessing on the parts of Japan they dislike and think need changing. Me, I'd rather simply accept the things I can't change and find a nice onsen to relax in, followed by an equally nice izakaya. |
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