Job Discussion Forums

[desmond]

Just thought I would let people know, if they are interested, that I found a web site that discusses issues in contempoary Saudi society from a Saudi perspective. log on to www.saudidebate.com

[Cleopatra]

Thanks for the link. It could be interesting but an obvious flaw is that the very thing that makes the site accessible to foreigners- the fact that it is in English - also means that only an unrepresentative minority of Saudis will be able to participate in it.

[scot47]

It is surprising how many Saudis have native speaker competence in English. Some speak better English than Arabic.

Don't be fooled by that uniform into thinking that they are all the same.Under the thobe and ghutrah or the abaya you will find a remarkable range of abilities, ideas and opinions.

We now have seen two generations where a fair number of young Saudi males have gone to English-speaking countries as students. Many came back with brides. They werer fruitful and multiplied and the children now move between two cultures.

[Queen of Sheba]

Thanks for the website. It�s worthy to note that of the 11 listed writers of this website, only 2 are Saudi. It is clearly a product meant for Western audiences by people who want to appease and educate Western audiences. Saudis have Arabic websites that discuss via news groups and chatrooms the detailed problems they face in their country such as terrorism, change, government etc. So its hard for us to really understand their culture and what they are facing. This is why its important to not stereotype them because "they all look alike and have the same religion," and our own prejudices. For these reasons, the outside can only observe Saudi Arabia, as the real issues are kept within their own discussions. Much like the way they live their lives - their personal world is often very different from their public world.

While we should try to understand the people we teach, which is a much better attitude than the gang busters attitude of some expats who come here for the money and hate the people who give them their salaries, we have to know we will always remain on the outside looking in, unless we have Saudi family members, and even then, its challenging.

I have found that the near native speakers are usually the children of those Saudis that have studied abroad and married non-Saudi women. The Saudi men (as few women would ever go abroad to study without a husband or brother), who have studied abroad, never gain native level proficiency because they come back to Saudi Arabia and English will always remain a second language, especially when it�s learned at a higher age than adolescence.

[desmond]

Just a line or two regarding the saudi website I posted. Should the views expressed on the site be deemed somehow as unrepresentative or atypical of the average Saudi on the street? Evidently it's written by journalists writing in English for speakers of English. Does that somehow compromise the site's validity or relevance? Again, because it's written in English, does this mean it's pandering to a western readership? Finally, queen of Sheba, appease is a strong word in the context of a web site, that is moderate but none the less strident for being so.

Finally, why is it I get the impression that people view Saudis as somehow radically different from other nationalities on earth? ultimately Wahhabism is no more or less inscrutable than, say, Balinese or Indian hinduism. And because they keep foreigners and, as I'm led to believe, anyone who's not a member of their family at arms length, does this make them so different to many other societies? Perhaps it's a perception that equates a rigid interpretation of Islam as somehow innately anti-western and thus hostile. Therefore people are less inclined to see what we have in common and more inclined to view our differences as paramount.

[Queen of Sheba]

[Cleopatra]

The website may be interesting in a sense, but as Q of S has said, it is simply incorrect to regard it as representing the views of Saudis - 'typical' or otherwise. As Q of S has said, only one or two of the writers have names which sound Saudi - many of them do not even appear to be Arabs. So while the site may be a useful resource for discussion on Saudi and Middle East issues (within certain parameters), to regard it as a forum representing Saudi debate is just wrong.

BTW Scot, I've met very few Saudis who speak English better than Arabic. I don't doubt that such people may exist, but they are either the sons and daughters of foreign mothers (much less often fathers) or have been educated abroad - maybe both. In any case, they could hardly be regard as representative of the Saudi population as a whole, the majority of whom would be unable to competently read or contribute to an English language website.

[desmond]

Would you, or would you not say that Saudi's are shaped by their society, their traditions etc? We are all conditioned as social beings. Or is that in dispute as well. As for politically-correct because I'm trying to present a balanced notion that life in some quarters of the world may be as radicallly different as any other. So you've lived there for ten years and done a consummate amount of reading, therefore others who pose questions without your level of 'expertise' are thus to be brushed aside with arrogance and then 'put in their place'. It's life dear, not an academic discipline. Engage or remain 'on high'.

[Cleopatra]

[shadowfax]

Dear Desmond,

I do believe you accord your detractors on this thread undue credit in ascribing to one of them the epithet 'academic'. Pedantry is a grotesque creature that fain would trick herself forth in robes scholastic, but ever betrays an odour that is but too clearly discerned. Therefore, I trust you are not discomfited with the absurd arrogance of preposterous and blatant pedants, whose whole raison d'etre is to thrash and flail with frenetic clumsiness a ponderous axe which they grind day and night, and whose habitual demeanour bespeaks a paroxysm of ill will to all men, or to such as stand not in the liking of their jejune coterie of partisan juveniles.
I found Shaker Nabulsi's article on educational reform succinct, mature, comprehensive, informative and subtle in exposition. It represents a Saudi perspective even if the Saudis it represents are in a minority as far as being empowered to express such views. Within the teaching vocation, I am sure there are a significant number of Saudis who either hold such opinions or deem them worthy of consideration. They deserve our every support.
It had been a matter of surprise and concern that certain individuals should see fit to detract and sneer at such material, were the world not long since aware of the element of vitriol and vinegar in which these rebarbative cavillers draw their very essence and being.

[desmond]

So here we go again. Talk about putting the cat amongst the pigeons. I only wrote about the site because there seems such a paucity of information about current issues in Saudia Arabia. I never expected to be villified for saying such a website may have some benefit. Attacked for being inaccurate, politically-correct and a male. How easily such feelings of anger and self-righteousness rise to the surface. Lighten up people!!! Okay, pedants, so it doesn't reflect Saudi society. Don't read it then. It's that simple. interestingly, neither of the detractors have actually written anything regarding the actual content of the site. And pleeeasse, what is it with the posters images?A cartoon of an arab woman carrying a bowl of chains and a woman in traditional garb. Ohh, what could these images be saying about the contributors? Both white, middle-class bleeding hearts!!

[Queen of Sheba]

There have been so many irrational comments and personal attacks, along with laughable sweeping generalizations that are wrong: race, creed, color, education � we are left to assume critical thinking is the threat here, fueled by the fact that it�s coming from women. One sweeping generalization earns another, so we are left to reassess the male ESL teachers� waning confidence levels. Nobody said the site was useless, in fact thanks have been given for the reference along with some cultural insights and opinions - for people to do with as they please. This is the Saudi Arabia forum, not Korea or anything else irrelevant, and we discuss all aspects of life and learning in KSA - nobody has commented on that which they aren't familiar and experienced with. If you can�t take feedback and observation, don�t talk to people about things they are interested in discussing.

Ahem�I am feeling a little weak now�please excuse me... my vitriol and vinegar injections have run late tonight...for this is the only way a woman may actually have an opinion that would dare differ from the wise men who speak in tongues to prove that they are indeed "academic."

[Cleopatra]

[desmond]

perhaps if you are aware of current issues in Saudi society you can educate the rest of us. I read (no guesses where from) about Al-Misyar or quick marriages that are a measure passed through the judicial system by clerics and hardliners. In effect this allows a man to marry a woman without the usual responsibilities and duties. So here we have an apparently highly religious society sanctioning marriages of expediency to assuage, probably male sexual desire. The 'marriages' can be dissolved with out the usual attendant legal and religious requirements. Surely an odd state of affairs in a religion that venerates marriage.