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Deicide
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1005
Location: Caput Imperii Americani
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 Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: A bit of a Predicament...looking for Info and Help... |
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| I am currently stuck in the Land of Morning Smog (Korea) and in all likelihood will be attempting to make the jump to Japan next year (I am debating between Japan and Russia, clearly Japan wins in the money department). There seems to be a lot of talk about things like GEOS and NOVA vs. JET. I am looking to get down to the nitty gritty and get that sorted for myself. Some posters have mentioned that professionally it might be better to be a NOVA or GEOS person than a JET person, though clearly JET seems more comfortable. I am currently working in a Hagwon (a Korean babysitting instituation) and I hate it...it has nothing to do with teaching English. Does JET resemble this in some regard? What are the core differences between JET and corporations like GEOS and NOVA? and what are the differences between GEOS and NOVA? Based on my minimal research GEOS seems the better deal. and does JET only place in the countryside? The other problem with all of this gigs is that they only seem to conduct interviews in your respective native country....the questions are a bit unordered but I appreciate any help in answering them...cheers all... |
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milesdenman
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Hi, i had the same questions about what makes JET so much better than the eikaiwas, see "NOVA is better than JET" post, there are some interesting points made.
I've got an interview with ECC, they have a pretty good rep, more holiday, training sessions throughout the year (so they say), and are based either around Tokyo (Kanto), Osaka (Kinki) and Nagoya (Chubu) + you can make a preference, which apparently they're quite good at accommodating.
If you go to their website www.japanbound.com you'll see that they have domestic hiring offices in Japan as well. They hire throughout the year. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: |
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Deicide,
Look at the web sites for NOVA and GEOS (and JET) to do some comparing. I've made a rough Excel file to compare the big four eikaiwa and JET based on such info, if you think it'll make it easier. PM me with your email if you want a copy.
NOVA www.teachinjapan.com
GEOS www.geoscareer.com
JET www.jetprogramme.org
JET does not always place in the country, but primarily so. Look at this web page to see placements.
http://www.jetprogramme.org/e/outline/2006-2007%20participants_pref_numbers.pdf
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| The other problem with all of this gigs is that they only seem to conduct interviews in your respective native country |
Usually so for NOVA and GEOS; perhaps they will make an exception if you are near one of their FEW Japanese main offices. As for JET, you can apply from within Japan, but you must interview in your home country, yes. |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:24 am Post subject: Re: A bit of a Predicament...looking for Info and Help... |
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| Deicide wrote: |
| Some posters have mentioned that professionally it might be better to be a NOVA or GEOS person than a JET person, though clearly JET seems more comfortable... |
Wow...posters actually arguing that NOVA and GEOS are the "professional" choice....
I'm going to be a dissenting voice on this one. I've never been an ALT, but I did teach two years of eikaiwa in the 80s. While it was both fun and a great way to get to Japan (part of why I still recommend eikaiwas to people who can't get into JET), it did nothing for me professionally (at least according to how I define the term).
Frankly, unless you get lucky (and are asked to teach larger classes completely on your own--i.e., no silly company textbook or looming JTE), neither JET nor the Big Four Eikaiwas really prepare you for teaching real classes. However, many university ads in Japan ask for people either with university or junior/senior high school experience...the latter definitely including ALTs. (Indeed, about half the people I know teaching at a Japanese university without a PhD--and two of the three I know teaching f/t without even an MA--made their jumps from the ALT ranks.) On the other hand, the stigma inside Japan against teachers at the Big Four is strong. I've been on university hiring committees where everyone attempting to come straight from an eikaiwa was just tossed out by the Japanese faculty...with a laugh.
Back in your home countries, ALT and eikaiwa experience would carry equal weight (i.e., not very much, but better than nothing). Maybe this is just me, but given the choice between two jobs with about equal impact professionally, I'd go for the one with more vacations and better pay...every time!  |
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canuck
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| I think many employers think it's a negative to have NOVA, Geos etc. on your resume for more than 6 months. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 7:40 am Post subject: |
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Deicide wrote:
| Quote: |
| Some posters have mentioned that professionally it might be better to be a NOVA or GEOS person than a JET person |
I am curious, too, about what those other posters actually had to say. Why might it be better professionally speaking? Eager to know what you've heard.
taikibansei wrote:
| Quote: |
| neither JET nor the Big Four Eikaiwas really prepare you for teaching real classes. |
"Real classes" means what? Teaching in a high school as a FT teacher? Teaching as a FT university teacher?
I've taught FT in eikaiwa as well as FT and PT in a private high school. Never as an ALT. And, you know I'm currently teaching FT in a university, so I can make a good comparison. I also know half a dozen colleagues who taught at the same HS as PT workers, not ALTs. Everyone had 15-20 classes per week except 1 or 2 PTers. They taught solo, or on equal ground with a fellow NET or JTE. Except for a moderately rare type of course (like writing), the NETs' courses almost always revolved around oral communication. We used eikaiwa books, too, and ours wasn't the only school to do that.
Other than the much larger class size, it often seemed not so different from eikaiwa. We rarely had to give a grade because the JTEs' related courses were the grammar lesson builders, and the NET courses merely supplemented them with OC practice. So in many respects, even a private HS (and JHS) course with 30-45 students is taught like eikaiwa.
And even in my university (and others), many courses are offered as OC courses, taught with eikaiwa books.
taikibansei wrote:
| Quote: |
| However, many university ads in Japan ask for people either with university or junior/senior high school experience...the latter definitely including ALTs. |
And many (most?) ads for FT teachers call for nothing more than a year or two of experience, and that includes taking people with eikaiwa experience, probably for the reasons I've described above.
Now, just so you don't think I'm proposing that eikaiwa work is all that's needed, or that HS and university work is 100% like eikaiwa, hear me out. HS teaching has heavier responsitilities as a PT or FT worker. I can't say how that works for ALTs, other than to speculate. HS and university work is quite different from eikaiwa when one has to teach reading or writing or TOEIC/TOEFL prep courses, of course. The age of the students can be quite different, too (yes, some eikaiwas teach teens, but you can get your fair share of housewives, businesspeople, and retirees). And, if you are in HS, you will also face meetings and club activities, but these digress from the actual topic of teaching, so I won't stress these too much.
I learned a lot as a HS teacher compared to eikaiwa. Although mine was a particularly grueling experience in HS, it gave me quite a lot of insight into the educational system here, whereas in eikaiwa that was completely lacking, and rightfully so. More of my more administrative duties and things I learned about the system in HS were directly applicable to university work, but as I mentioned above, a great deal of what was taught was very comparable to eikaiwa. |
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callmesim
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 279
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| milesdenman wrote: |
| I've got an interview with ECC, they have a pretty good rep, more holiday, training sessions throughout the year (so they say), and are based either around Tokyo (Kanto), Osaka (Kinki) and Nagoya (Chubu) + you can make a preference, which apparently they're quite good at accommodating. |
As someone working for ECC, I don't have too much to complain about but just to put some perspective on the glowing advantages.
More holiday - This is nice. But if you're wanting to travel around Japan, this can be a bit sucky. You have 3 fixed breaks. Summer and Winter vacation and Golden Week. Then there are national holidays and your 5 ALPs. This means if you want to travel outside of "daytrip" terrain, you have to do it all in this time.
Summer Vacation - the middle of Summer. Hot, humid, horrid.
Winter Vacation - the middle of Winter. The opposite
Golden Week - the busiest time of year.
Travel during these times is expensive and busy seeing as most of Japan is on holidays as well! If you want to travel overseas, expect to pay an additional 50%-100% compared to off-peak. Travel within Japan isn't much more expensive than normal but vacancies with train/bus/accomm. can be a little limited unless you plan!
ALPs - You have 5. Just 5. And if you're sick and want to be paid for that day - 'goodbye 1 ALP'.
National Holidays. Unless they appear on eitherside of your days off, then it's not good for travel. Though there are enough 'Happy Mondays' to give a few 2 day weekends.
You will always work on Saturday and will most likely not have two consecutive days off.
Additional Training - This is a bad point in my book. The job doesn't change so if you're not doing it properly within the first few months then you shouldn't be a teacher. Additional training sessions are paid at �1000 an hour and are usually 3 hours in length. They start at 10.30am and are in addition to your normal working day. This sucks because, being mainly a night job, days with training are LONG days and all for an extra �3000. And they're usually a waste of time.
Choice of Location - Yes, this is very good. If you request Osaka, chances are you'll be close to the action in either Osaka, Kyoto or Kobe. Request Tokyo and you could be as far away as Sendai! Still, it's better than some of the other schools! |
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taikibansei
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Posts: 811
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski wrote: |
| "Real classes" means what? Teaching in a high school as a FT teacher? Teaching as a FT university teacher? |
Teaching full time as either a regular high school or university teacher. As your anecdotes also suggest, most ALTs and eikaiwa teachers do not get experience in running classes on their own--i.e., as part of a regular curriculum they helped design/support and with the full ability to choose materials and give grades. This, according to my definition, makes them about even in professional development. Not bad (or good), just even.
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| I've taught FT in eikaiwa as well as FT and PT in a private high school. Never as an ALT. And, you know I'm currently teaching FT in a university, so I can make a good comparison. I also know half a dozen colleagues who taught at the same HS as PT workers, not ALTs. Everyone had 15-20 classes per week except 1 or 2 PTers. They taught solo, or on equal ground with a fellow NET or JTE. |
If they are teaching with a JTE ("equal" or otherwise), how are they not ALTs? E.g., aren't they still listed in Japanese as 外国人指導助手? Show me the website of these schools...I'm curious now....
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| Except for a moderately rare type of course (like writing), the NETs' courses almost always revolved around oral communication. We used eikaiwa books, too, and ours wasn't the only school to do that. |
The question is not whether you use a textbook but your freedom to choose (or go beyond) the textbook. As many threads here (and elsewhere on the web) have made clear, too much freelancing at, say, NOVA can get you in trouble. However, regular teachers (some of the smaller eikaiwas give you this freedom, and some JETs have it as well) get to be the sole arbitrators of what is used, how, and why in the classroom.
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| Other than the much larger class size, it often seemed not so different from eikaiwa. We rarely had to give a grade because the JTEs' related courses were the grammar lesson builders, and the NET courses merely supplemented them with OC practice. So in many respects, even a private HS (and JHS) course with 30-45 students is taught like eikaiwa. |
See, to me this sounds like a typical ALT experience...except that you were given nominal control over your own classes (but in a supplementary role and usually without grading responsibilities). In contrast, I have foreign acquaintances locally who are full teachers in the Japanese sense--e.g., they are permanent employees who grade, advise, run classes, etc. with the same rights and privileges as Japanese faculty. These people, working at private high schools, have more responsibilities than you did, including having to discuss/debate curriculum issues in Japanese during faculty meetings. This extra layer of responsibility--and the demands it places on your teaching--is an additional element that you don't often get as either an ALT or in a major eikaiwa. Which doesn't make the latter positions "bad," just equal in my book.
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| And even in my university (and others), many courses are offered as OC courses, taught with eikaiwa books. |
What do you mean by "OC courses"? Joukyuu eikaiwa courses? Ippan kyouiku courses? If the latter, and if your situation is typical, it doesn't really matter what book you're using--with 40-70 low-level students in your classes, there's not going to be a lot of "kaiwa" happening....  However, I assume that, as a tenured faculty, you are now solely responsible for providing supplementary materials/activities, grading, classroom control, academic advising, etc. Also, you are free to change the textbooks if you don't like them (and deal with the consequences if your new choices don't work out either...). If you don't have opportunities to face these additional challenges, there are limits to the professional development you will achieve.
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| And many (most?) ads for FT teachers call for nothing more than a year or two of experience, and that includes taking people with eikaiwa experience, probably for the reasons I've described above. |
Really? I've just had a look at JREC-IN--can't seem to find many ads for a full-time university position that accepts eikaiwa experience. Instead, most seem to ask specifically for high school and/or university experience (e.g., Osaka Shoin, Nagasaki Gaidai, Toukai Daigaku, Kanazawa Daigaku, Tsukuba Daigaku...). The ones that don't specifically ask for this experience mostly ask for PhDs and extensive research agendas (Meiji Gakuin, Aichi Gakuin, etc.). I'm down to number 30 on the Japanese side...and don't have time to look for more. Perhaps I'm looking on the wrong list...? 
Again, my only point was that JET/ALT positions are great positions as well--at least the equal to an eikaiwa position in terms of professional development. And again, if given a choice, I'd go for the JET position because of the better salary and holidays.
Last edited by taikibansei on Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:26 am; edited 2 times in total |
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canuck
Joined: 11 May 2003
Posts: 1921
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Eikaiwa is what people do before they get something better in most cases. |
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kdynamic
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 562
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| One difference to consider as someone already living abroad is that with JET you will need to fly to your home country for the interview, and again for departure. JET only hires once a year, and the application process takes more than 6 months. And there are no guarantees you'll get in. If this works for you, go for it, but there is no way to circumvent having to be in your home country for the interview and departure. |
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Deicide
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 1005
Location: Caput Imperii Americani
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| kdynamic wrote: |
| One difference to consider as someone already living abroad is that with JET you will need to fly to your home country for the interview, and again for departure. JET only hires once a year, and the application process takes more than 6 months. And there are no guarantees you'll get in. If this works for you, go for it, but there is no way to circumvent having to be in your home country for the interview and departure. |
Thanks for the reply to one of my main questions, that scraps jet for me...oh well...flying out to Hawaii, shelling out geld for an interview I could fail...bleh...*beep* that shit.... |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:40 am Post subject: |
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taikibansei wrote:
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| If they are teaching with a JTE ("equal" or otherwise), how are they not ALTs? E.g., aren't they still listed in Japanese as 外国人指導助手? Show me the website of these schools...I'm curious now |
The ones that I worked with did some team teaching with the JTE, but at least half of their classes were also taught solo. That does not make them an ALT, whether they were FT or PT. I couldn't say if they were listed as 外国人指導助手 because I'm no longer there and don't have the paperwork for such hires. I would rather not say the name of the school, but you know who I used to work for. If you have forgotten, I'd be happy to tell you in private. I don't think you'll find any hiring information in their web site.
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| The question is not whether you use a textbook but your freedom to choose (or go beyond) the textbook. |
This is a ticklish point, too, at my old school anyway. Syllabi and textbooks were determined by one teacher (JTE or NET) months before the decision was made who was actually going to teach the courses. What usually happened was that a totally different person got stuck with the course about 7-10 days before its first class met. I know this has happened in other schools, too. So, in part, there was freedom to choose and go beyond, but in part there was none. And in case you're wondering how often this happened, I can easily tell you that every year for the past 7 (at least) this was the case because the English curriculum changed that often. Mind-bending!
Example. I got stuck with one course in which students were to do group projects all year. The book someone chose for me was Fifty-fifty volume 2. Totally useless, yet students had to buy it, and I never even brought my copy to class, let alone dip into it. Thankfully, no student or parent ever brought it up. This was not the only example of such a thing happening.
Example. And, in other courses, there often were no textbooks at all, so teachers (PT or FT) had to figure out what to do without one. When a few JTEs talked to the NETs about some complaints, this issue was raised, and even the headmaster disbelieved that NET classes often didn't have textbooks to follow. When we asked them if JTE classes ever had such a problem, they said no, never.
Example. And, then there were the courses that had a textbook thrown at us, one that only 2 people in the whole department liked, yet everyone was forced to use without much leeway in lesson planning.
| Quote: |
Glenski Quote:
Other than the much larger class size, it often seemed not so different from eikaiwa. We rarely had to give a grade because the JTEs' related courses were the grammar lesson builders, and the NET courses merely supplemented them with OC practice. So in many respects, even a private HS (and JHS) course with 30-45 students is taught like eikaiwa.
taikibansei wrote:
See, to me this sounds like a typical ALT experience |
Maybe I should clarify a little. The curriculum is a bit confusing. Let's just use 1st year students as an example. They got 6 lessons of English per week. Two of those could be a team-teaching course with one JTE and one NET. The focus was using a crappy book (the one mentioned above that nearly everyone hated, NOT an eikaiwa book) to use oral communication in a way to use the grammar points. The other 4 classes per week were solely taught by the JTE. One of those was directed at reading, while the other 3 were focused on presenting the grammar. The students got ONE GRADE for the combination of these classes. What did the team teaching amount to? No homework. No tests. Scant in-class homework prints. The grammar points in high school are much more difficult ones than in junior high, and so much so that they are often impossible to use in a conversation lesson, yet people tried. It was usually the NET who created such a lesson, but that depended on how good the JTE was in cooperating and being creative. So, largely, the NET made two lesson plans a week that didn't provide any grade for the students, yet they got a modest amount of OC practice. Grades fell continuously for 3 or more years, and students were ticked off because they couldn't see the point in the team taught lessons. Considering these involved about a dozen teachers FT and PT, NET and JTE, it was a curriculum problem (mostly stemming from the book and the people who pushed ways to use it), not a problem with teaching abilities. Ok, sorry, I digress.
One point I'm trying to make here is that FT teachers (sennin and jokin) and PT teachers did exactly the same work whether for team taught or solo classes. Exactly.
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| I have foreign acquaintances locally who are full teachers in the Japanese sense--e.g., they are permanent employees who grade, advise, run classes, etc. with the same rights and privileges as Japanese faculty. These people, working at private high schools, have more responsibilities than you did, including having to discuss/debate curriculum issues in Japanese during faculty meetings |
Sorry if I wasn't clear on this, but every NET had that right at my old school. The PTers simply couldn't attend the staff meetings, but otherwise everyone else did and had an equal chance for input. Granted, there was a language barrier, but you are going to find that probably in most high schools, so I think your acquaintances may be rare cases if they could speak Japanese fluently. At my school, the FTers (jokin and sennin) attended the same staff meetings, worked on committees, worked on clubs, performed assistant homeroom duties, etc. completely like a JTE. I can't say what other schools are like, but a small poll I took online showed that my school was not alone in this sort of work representation.
Quote:
And even in my university (and others), many courses are offered as OC courses, taught with eikaiwa books.
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| What do you mean by "OC courses"? Joukyuu eikaiwa courses? Ippan kyouiku courses? |
Sorry, but I don't know what you mean by this distinction. By OC courses, I mean that students (usually 1st year) take "communicative English" courses that use an eikaiwa textbook to promote general communication, with the focus being on speaking. Yup, even in a class of 50 students. Stupid, I know, but that's what we are dealt. Last semester we had four sections -- 50, 50, 32, and 9 students -- all with the same textbook and syllabus.
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| If the latter, and if your situation is typical, it doesn't really matter what book you're using--with 40-70 low-level students in your classes, there's not going to be a lot of "kaiwa" happening.... |
You'd be surprised how much kaiwa we made happen! In a 90 minute course, we had surveys taken, free talking going on, and directed conversations for at least half that time. Damn hard to monitor, of course, but we tried.
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| However, I assume that, as a tenured faculty, you are now solely responsible for providing supplementary materials/activities, grading, classroom control, academic advising, etc. |
Yes, but so are the PTers.
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| Also, you are free to change the textbooks if you don't like them (and deal with the consequences if your new choices don't work out either...). |
Yes. And, so are the PTers. |
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