Job Discussion Forums

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

As a postscript to my post advertising part of the Danish solution to combating the problems of youth violence and crime I�d like to write the following - after the kindergarten years - for all children there is a nationwide network of state-run after-school clubs (afternoon clubs - school usually ends at 12.00 - where kids between 7-11 can participate in sport, crafts, drama kind stuff or just play) and youth clubs (evenings for 12-18 - where you can do the kind of stuff teens do - but where drugs/violence and crime and definitely prohibited) - all these places include staff who are trained pedagogues who work together with teachers and local authorities and indeed even police when the situation warrants it. They also have the authority to be able to call parents in for consultation and can forward serious problems to an appropriate higher authority. These clubs are not free - but local authorities will give grants to deprived families (those in the "social danger zone") so they can send their kids. Youth who have had brushes with the law are strenuous encouraged to attend these clubs and keep off the streets - and in most big cities there is a network of street workers - which include a good number of "street-savvy" pedagogues - who can try and "cater" and monitor that group who have fallen through the social safety nets and are posing problems on the street.
No way is this system 100% effective - crime, violence and drugs (drugs being a particular problem) still exist - and the system is darn expensive on the taxes - three year ago I was paying 48% in tax on my taxable income (Danish taxes are the worlds highest - or at least up there in the top three � but then again you should see the roads, hospitals, schools etc etc � even though the Danes are always saying they're sub-standard) and anyways the population is only 5 million - so it stands to reason that it should be a more easily manageable society (or is that another absurd generalization) ! This system is also not easily exportable (maybe I should change that comment to impossible) - since it not also takes money to set it up, but also social trust - imagine all those folk poking their noses in on how kids are being brought up!!! But believe me the training needed to be able to enter this system as a pedagogue is very vigorous - an is an education that not only deals with developmental aspects of children - hitting on both schooling with regard to academic and health issues - but also encourages the worker to find a purpose for her work - studying philosophical argument regarding the nature of knowledge, social norms and morals and the concept of "good-life". The whole thing may look to the outsider as a bit big-brother like, but in my book it seems to be quite effective in demoting the big-slap principle to that place where it rightly belongs - the garbage bin Exclamation

By the way - altogether I worked within this system for 5 years - 3 years in primary schools - and a couple with special-needs teens in a half-way house type home and on the street. I�ve also had experience within Danish schools of special-needs classes/teaching � but that is a whole other story
And how does all this bull help the FT with an unrully chinese class - well at best it can only indicate that in some far off utopia there is a real alternative to those 5 minutes alone with the kid - but at least an alternative that is not focused on suffering and degradation - but one of focusing on possible possitive developement and resources - which after all - in my bleeding heart world - should be the message of all aspects of education Idea

Steppenwolf · Joined: 30 Jul 2006 Posts: 1769

Motormouth Vik from DK,
you have unsuccessfully hijacked this thread to make a pompous and self-show of your righteous andf pedagogically-hypercorrect attitude; you have blissfully ignored the topic at the core of this thread: should we or should we not interfere in a "proceedure" (your spelling) enacted by our employer and our colleagues.

I still hold that you overstepped the boundaries of your province by exploding in the face of a Chinese teacher you found "guilty" of physically disciplining a Chinese kid.

That - and not anyone's personal attitude to physical punishment is the issue here; meanwhile you sound more like an ayatollah berating the infidels than a truly enlightened education guru. We know you derive all your intelligence from very knowledgeable manuals; well, surprise for you - there is also LIFE, and life often teaches us lessons no book has prepared us for! I am reasonably sure you lack practically relevant experience. YOu are a polemicist - and a lousy one at that! Your character shows too well - and that's not the ideal character of a person entrusted with educational goals for children of others.

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

Steppenwolf · Joined: 30 Jul 2006 Posts: 1769

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

kev7161 · Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Posts: 5880 Location: Suzhou, China

In both Chinese schools I've worked at, it is "illegal" to toss a kid out of the classroom. And sending the child to the principal is practically unheard of! A principal (and, indeed, even vice-principals) run around to meetings all day creating new rules and regulations, but rarely and truly interact with the student body.

These so-called "head teachers" seem to hide in their offices when not teaching their own classes and rarely, if ever, visit classrooms on a whim just to see "how things are going". They don't want to know!

What I do now as one of my punishments is to move the student's desk to the front doorway (I have two doors to my classroom) and his chair/butt is parked out in the hallway, the desk at the the threshold and the door is open so he can still see and hear the lesson. He has no chance at all to interact with the other kids. I'm following "their" rules while modifying it enough so it can work for me. The kid doesn't like sitting out there all alone and the other kids may or may not chide him for it afterwards. A little humility can work wonders.

The point being there ARE creative ways to punish a child without resorting to physical force - - it's just in China the powers that be make it much more difficult to work together as a team to overcome these obstacles by not setting up parameters and establishing some tried and true methods. When I was having such EXTREME difficulty at my last school, the problem wasn't bad students rather I wasn't a good enough teacher, so I was told. Perhaps . . . but I don't think I was the problem, really.

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

Kev your posts just point out what nightmare chinese education has concoted with regard to school discipline - but then again prehaps i should be quiet since steppenwolf tells me -

crashartist1 · Joined: 06 Jun 2004 Posts: 164

Actually half of me was serious when I said I thought it was okay to smack the children around. I'm tired of reading the news and learning of yet ANOTHER high school student bringing a gun to school and killing someone and themselves. Something has to be done about this and I think it has to start with discipline at home and at school.
Now I have ZERO idea what teaching in China is about so I can't rightfully comment on whether or not the punishment fit the crime, but I can tell you from an American school teacher point of view that I have seen stuff happen in classrooms that make you want to haul the little 10 year old outside and smack the crap out of them and then do the same thing to their parents.
We can't hit the children and it shouldn't even be allowed to come to that but it does. I liked something I read here a little bit ago, and it's a common idea passed on many different forums, "Who are we to walk into a different culture and judge them on what we believe is right and wrong?"

This whole topic is going to be one vicious circle. I say put a mechanism in line to ensure that the punishment fits the crime, but there are always exceptions. The you will say, �Who will ensure that those guidelines you institute will be followed by letter?� I will reply �We must have controllers� and you can rebuff, �Who will control the controllers?�

Nothing ever will really get solved, and we have every right to comment to EACH OTHER in regards to things we deem to be inappropriate, but I do not feel we ever have the right to interfere and try to change another culture to suit our belief systems. If we succeed in changing everyone and culture to what we feel is appropriate we will have a lot of countries with our cultural values and that would be depressing.

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

crashartist1 · Joined: 06 Jun 2004 Posts: 164

We are all entitled to our own opinion.

We are not entitled to tell another culture they are wrong.

If we do not like what is going on then we need to change our situation.

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

kev7161 · Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Posts: 5880 Location: Suzhou, China

I think we're not going to come to a consensus on this and that's fine - - that's what forums such as these are for. However a few closing thoughts from me:

1. In my home city of Topeka, one school district started to use metal detectors at the high school (in one of the "safer" school districts). Some parents were up in arms about this situation citing that THEIR children were being discriminated against due to the actions of others (in other districts and even other cities . . . Columbine anyone?). Those metal detectors came down after a few short weeks. To date, as far as I know, there have been no shootings at that high school, but a metal detector would seem to be a greater deterrant than "hoping" nothing happens. It only takes one incident . . .

2. In my youth, teachers were allowed to paddle students with a wooden paddle. In my old-zheimers mind, I can't recollect if I was ever on the receiving in of said paddle, but I DO remember my brother was a couple of times (he is a fine, upstanding citizen these days, by the way). I also remember the threat of seeing that paddle hanging by the classroom door as a reminder of what COULD happen if we were to ever get out of line.

3. In 3rd grade, I remember being one of those smart-assed, show-offy kids who seemed to know the answer to everything and I'd shout it out rather than raising my hand. I'm sure I was a spunky little kid who thought he was so very clever. My teacher at that time did not and she (gently, I'm sure) smacked my cheek once - - after verbally warning me several times I'll bet - - and told me to be quiet. I was SO embarrassed, more than hurt, and laid my head on my desk for the rest of the afternoon. Guess who was still a clever kid . . . but didn't shout out answers any more?

I don't think we as teachers should have to resort to a physical punishment system. But when there is NO system or when the threat is not followed up by action, the kids catch on. And that's the problem IN CHINA with the current crop of little emporers and empresses - - they know they have the power in most cases. I feel it's only going to get worse before it (possibly) gets better.

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

no metal detectors in Danish schools (even if they are not totaly free from problems), but then again a discusion like this among a group of qualified Danish educators - would probaly never hit on the merits of beating with a paddle or slaps across the face.
By the way Kev is your brother the type to take to the streets to march against social injustice such as race segregation - or is the mental image of an Uncle Sam with his paddle ready to smack the unruly boy who steps out of line still strong enough to make him keep his ass in line Question

vikdk · Joined: 25 Jun 2003 Posts: 1676

sorry kev my last post was pretty unfair in parts - but does raise the point why rigerous dictatorial discipline in the classroom - may be looked upon through certain high-placed eyes - as something that has not so much to do with nuturing the fine upstanding citizen - but also making sure society is trained to stay within that place that was intended for it. But then again we who travel - especialy us happy-campers of one big party China - know that this could be well said to be just part and parcel of that, which has been so prettily described as cultural uniqueness Laughing

Mydnight · Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:54 am Post subject:

Last week, a kid that I would justly diagnose with ADHD (the real deal) simply refused to sit down and ran around the room. I picked him up and put him back in his seat, called another teacher to come, and finally made him stand in the corner; to no avail. I found a little piece of plastic that's supposed to be used for a binder that goes around books, I often use for pointing at the board...the next time he came up to the front of the classroom and put his hand on my desk, I smacked his hand with it. I didn't do it extremely hard, but I am sure it stung for a while. It sounded worse than it was; a really loud smack.

Results:

Kids became silent, boy went and sat down and didn't get up for the rest of the class. Maybe there is something to this corporal punishment thing. I never tried it before that day. I have seen Chinese teachers come in class and snatch a kid up by his ear...