Job Discussion Forums

[vtchica]

So... this is a reasonable question. What are the consequences for an American working illegally in Spain if busted? Mere deportation? Heavy fines? Caning?

Any information would be welcome.

Thanks,
vtchica

[CMB]

The way that Spain's labor laws are written now (and this is constantly changing...) mandate that the [b]company which employs illegal workers [/b]is subject to heavy fines, but the worker is not penalized. On the contrary, in the past there have been windows of "legalization" where the government allows any illegal workers who have been residing in Spain for more than a certain period of time to get legal status through their employers. With the recent surge in illegal immigration from Africa the E.U. is putting a lot of pressure on Spain to tighten controls and stop these periodic legalizations, so we'll see what happens in the future. In any case, the spirit of the law is basically that the illegal workers are victims of exploitation by the companies which employ them. These kinds of penalizations are normally only enforced in sectors like construction where the pay and conditions can really be abusive, so most language schools are not very concerned with it- although technically the same rules apply.

[AllOne]

Well, I need to ask you why you would want to work illegally. Please think about the overall consequences of your action. Every illegal English teacher brings the overall wage for English teachers down. When you take a job and are paid illegally, you give the employer a break: the employer doesn`t have to pay social security. You think you are getting a break because you are getting a tax free job. The problem is that you are taking a job from someone who wants to work legally, and if that legal worker opts to work autonomme, because the emplyer does not want to pay the social security, the teacher must pay 230Euro social security per month whether they work or not.

I've been in Barcelona for three weeks looking for work. I've had countless interviews. 2 or 3 a day, and will start working tomorrow - part time - 7.5 hours a week for 13.20 Euro per hour. I've ben offered more hours, for more money - but the conditions were bad (illegal, or lousy schedule: ex. two classes on the same evening with a class in between - without pay! So I am at the school for 4.5 hours and paid for 3. Or how about be available for work from 8:00 am to 8:00pm Monday to Friday and be paid for 30 hours.)

I am a North American with a European passport and so am fully legal to work in Spain, and have 5 years TEFL experience, a CELTA and a B.A.
Last week I was offered 5 illegal jobs.

Illgeal: The company pays me under the table. They don't pay my Social Secuirty, I don't pay tax, there is no contract. That means they can dump me any time they want and if I don't get paid at the end of the day, I have no legal recourse to ensure I do get paid. It also means if I get sick I have to pay for a doctor and hospital. It also means when I get old I have limited pension because no pension fund was paid into by my employer. It also means I don't get a paid holiday.

Most teaching jobs in Spain are on 9 mointh contracts. That means at the ened of June, you have no job until the beginning of October, maybe even the middle of October. And if your employer has not paid your social security it means you have no income. In any case, you have to work for one year to get unemployment benefits, and with most contracts being 9 months you can't get that either.

When you take an illegal job you support those kinds of working conditions.

Maybe you have a pension because you have worked for many years in a good job, or maybe you have investments you can live on, and you just want to retire to Spain and make a little extra cash on the side teaching English. When you do that you take a job from someone who needs it.

Think about it.

Look at the offices the language schools are renting. Look at the cost of accomodation in a city like Barcelona. Look at how much you are getting paid. Do the math.

Do you want to support top heavy language teaching corporations who pay big rent to other top heavy corporations and low salaries to their teachers?

Think about what you are perpetrating when you work illegally.

Find out how much the students are paying for their classes. How many students are in the class? Do the math.

Do you want to perpetrate that sort of inequity and exploitation?

My rant for the day.

[Moore]

If you're having trouble getting decent work and hours in Barcelona, then come to Madrid: there's actually a teacher shortage here right now

[stoth1972]

but the conditions were bad (illegal, or lousy schedule: ex. two classes on the same evening with a class in between - without pay!

Is there any English teacher in Spain who doesn't suffer from that, illegal or legal? Most people I knew working in Spain did so because they just wanted to enjoy the culture. Many of my friends from the EU (some who were illegally employed as they werepaid under-the-counter) suffered crap schedules, low pay, and unreliable academy owners. ESL work in Spain is notoriously dodgey, even for those who have the proper work permit. Its low salaries attrack those willing to support conditions that others won't. Hence, all the holilday-making ESL teachers who love and enjoy the country and the lifestyle while suffering their jobs.

I did the whole illegal thing in Spain a few years back, and yes, while it's got zero job security (none of my 'contracts' in other countries where I was legally employed had security) but if you're a good teacher, then most academies want to keep you around as much as possible. I worked in Aranjuez, and when I took the job, my boss promised hours that never came to be. I started work part-time in Madrid as American Language Academy (ALASA). I was reliable and took my classes seriously. The owner of the academy in Madrid recognised that and went out of his way to keep me on staff there, by giving me block scheduling all day Tuesday and Thursday. He was the one that suggested I only work Monday and Wednesday at my other school, and Tues and THurs at him, allowing my a constant 3 day weekend. And this is all from the academy where I started by teaching only Saturday classes.

I guess my point is, there are decent employers out there, and quality teachers are appreciated in some places. I suspect the original poster wants to live and work in Spain, and is willing to chance the drawbacks of being illegal for the opportunity to live there. S/he just needs to know how bad it is is s/he does get caught.

[spiral78]

The point is that if people didn't work illegally, working conditions would improve for those who are legal.

[stoth1972]

[jr1965]

Stoth1972:

You raised a point I find interesting: At an academy where you worked, the employer needed teachers with North American accents b/c of the clientele the school caters to. In that case, how could the govt deny the work visa sponsorship, claiming that there were local (Spanish) teachers available? Don't get me wrong; I'm sure many of them would make great English teachers, but it terms of accent training or exposure ... how would that work? Do you know what I mean?

Recently, I've seen ads quite frequently requesting North American teachers (and in fact, I've seen one quite reputable place that will only hire North Americans), but if there is no way to hire these candidates legally, then it really is, like you say, a vicious circle: The schools want them; the govt won't issue the visa; the company hires the North American anyway (b/c the company needs them and the North American wants to be in Spain), but then that person has no protection and yeah, I suppose it does bring down wages/working conditions in general. It's crazy.

[spiral78]

It wasn't Spain - it was the Netherlands, and the laws there are admittedly even more stringent. A university wanted to hire me, a North American with an MA and 6 years of experience. The DOS was willing to go to Den Hague and petition for an exception on my behalf, with evidence that, in 18 months of advertising the position, no other reasonable candidate had appeared and a petition with hundreds of student names signed saying that a North American speaker on the staff would benefit them.

One day before the court case a call came from Den Hague telling the DOS not to bother with the travel; the petition had absolutely no chance.

I did get a work permit eventually (actually the following week, serendipidously), but only because my spouse's international company had worked a deal with the government to cover all non-EU spouses.

Quite honestly, I suppose the cleanest standards for these governments to impose would be qualifications: eg. a North American with a related MA and 10 years of experience should be preferred over a Brit with a basic cert and no experience.
But this would STILL prohibit all those North American starry-eyed newbies who have fallen in love with the idea of Europe. Bummer.

Still, the more desirable locations should be reserved for those of us who are the most committed and qualified. Then, the newbies could go to Asia or South America and gain experience, get post grad education in the field, and retire in the 'best' locations- the most desirable ones, in any case.

[stoth1972]

jr1965:

That's the logic I would follow, but it just didn't fly. Beaurocracy, I suppose. It means that someone like myself, with an MEd TESOL and over 6 years of teaching experience would not get permission to be a DOS in Spain, but a Brit with less qualifications would, and that makes no sense-particularly if I'm willing to take the job at the rate offered and best fit the requirements for the position.

The place I worked for in Madrid actually gave medical insurance to their full-time teachers (of which there were many) and the salary was decent for Madrid at the time. Teachers usually taught around 23 hours/week and hand to travel to and from some off-site locations for company teaching. All in all, it was a pretty decent gig for illegal work.


spiral78:

[txtraveler]

[jr1965]

[stoth1972]

I have a hard time envisioning all those students (many of mine were college-aged kids) having the money for ESL courses conducted by highly-qualified teachers.

[spiral78]

How many students in a class? We aren't talking about privates, but groups who are, in any case, paying relatively big bucks to the middle-men language schools. It's a case of redistribution, not huge cost increases for students.

[jr1965]