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sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
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 Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:46 am Post subject: Caught in Uni Oral English trap |
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I'm in my third year teaching in a university . I guess the same gig as a lot of you guys have done or are doing now . One thing that everyday becomes more evident is that it seems to me impossible for a new teacher to come to China and successfully teach English in these situations . I mean the one where you plan your curriculum yourself, you decide everything that happens in the course and finally you test the students .
Am I right in thinking it is ridiculous to even attempt testing students for oral English when faced with 200 or so students that you meet once or twice a week ?
The fact that the teacher has no experience in planning tests , curriculums is bad enough , let alone taking into consideration that we have no guidance from professionals or even experienced teachers . No disrespect to those with experience but I see the oral English class as a non starter even if you are experienced in that you simply don't have the time and resource along with added complications of different levels to actually plan and devise a course that will be effective now and for the future . You'd have to strip the whole system down and well that aint gonna appen is it !
The plus side is that I've been able to experiment in class and go in and learn about my role as a teacher , how to teach certain grammar points or pronunciation and just obtain an experience that gives me very good micro skills but in the big picture us teachers in this situation are caught in a trap that I persobnally see no way out of .
So my advice to anybody thinking of this gig is to think what you want from it . I don't see results on behalf of my learners but some personal gains that any experienced teacher would already have . It's ok for the newbie for a few years but I'm seriousely outa here soon !
Is that a bit negative?? Perhaps there's some light from somewhere ? |
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Hendahu
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| I feel your pain. It does get frustrating at times. What I fall back on is that even the slightest improvement is an improvment. I get my kids to talk as much as possible in class, with me and each other. Some may not improve much, but the majority do benefit from this. So do not think your efforts are wasted. You are working is a broken system. But just being exposed to a western teacher has benefits of it own. You can be proud of what you have done here. |
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kev7161
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Posts: 5880
Location: Suzhou, China
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, so here's the thing: Foreigners have been here for years and years now teaching "Oral" English. Are we all agreed on that? Why-oh-why don't these unis and senior high schools already have an established "oral" English curriculum in place? Why does it seem to me (from my own experiences, plus what I hear from others, plus what I read on this forum) that every September all these schools around the country have a start-from-scratch program?
I'm not even talking about having materials such as textbooks or CDs or whatever. But why can't the school give that incoming teacher a list of what he or she should try to accomplish each semester. AND THEN, give them a copy of a test that they hope for the students to pass? The teacher can look at the list of, say, conversation topics, do a little (or a lot of) research online and put together a lesson each week. They could also look at the copy of the test and say to themselves, "okay, the students need to be able to say such-and-such freely or quote from this or that text or recite this certain poem" . . . you get my drift don't you?
Instead, it seems teachers all over China come into the situation cold turkey, get thrown into the lion pit (sorry, this is China . . .the TIGER pit) and then receive little to no support from the school personnel. What is wrong with having some consistency from one year to the next? Last year, I was asked to teach (as one of my subjects) a "Social Skills" class. I said, "okay, just give me a list of topics you'd like me to cover and I can put some lessons together." It never happened . . . we're doing New Parade instead.
My advice to people seeking a new job is to ask ahead of time for the school to send you something that covers their goals and objectives and a list of different topics and themes (you know, sort of like a syllabus) you are to cover to reach those goals. If they are REALLY serious about hiring you, ask them what textbook you'll be using and have them send you a copy so you can research it and wrap your head around the things you'll be teaching. I know these are lofty expectations, but you know the Chinese schools are not about to do ANYTHING without your suggestions ahead of time. |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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"Oral English" should not be an academic subject that rewards participants with extra credits, full stop!
This is not a serious subject and should not have the place at universities it unfortunately occupies.
Students should be mature enough to use their English in situations they help create to practise English. Anything that has to be organised for their benefit smacks of custodianship and of patronising.
Nevertheless, there is a lot of work to do for any teacher though it is not the talking that is so important; it's the improving of their English.
University graduates can't even write a decent English-language biography, a C.V. or a simple essay; they cannot organise their own thoughts, hence they cannot make interesting and spontaneous speeches.
Often they have to be taught what is a 'first name' and a 'last name' because their thinking is geared to Chinese concepts that have nothing to do with reality and western life. Ah, don't get me started...tomorrow I have over 90 studednts learning to listen and understand spoken English without having their eyes glued to their textbooks! Many of them will probably forget to bring their notebook and pen again...they will be in for a hard lesson! Hard on them! |
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Shan-Shan
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Posts: 1074
Location: electric pastures
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Oral English" should not be an academic subject that rewards participants with extra credits, full stop! |
Which is why "English", or any foreign language for that matter in China, needs to be conceived of as what learning a language constitutes: being able to read it, understand it aurally, and communicate through text and speaking.
It still baffles me how a school can claim to offer language classes when none of the students enrolled are required to actually put all those grammar rules and vocabulary lists together to form even the simplest acts of sustained communication.
"Oral English" is English, just like "Writing English", "Reading English" and "Listening English". Why an entire education ministry wishes to produce a nation of mute English speakers is a peculiar question indeed. Every English class should be an English class. Students learn to master the four skills of a language, and hopefully become proficient enough to be able to communicate with others by using that language. And hey, learning to speak English, in addition to read, write and understand it, might also help with those college English tests as well. More synaptic connections being made while expressing ideas through English could lessen the memorization struggle which ensues in preparation for English exams.
Schools offer no support for "oral" English because learning to speak a foreign language in the foreign language classroom is a very "foreign" concept here. Chinese teachers and administration studied English, Russian, etc. in manners like today's students do. How could these "leaders" then be able to view the act of learning another language as best approached holistically when language learning in China is still a chop and slice operation of grammar rules sutured together leading to utter incompetence at communication?
Many Chinese students who are aware, and who do not wish to see their years of learning English as a waste, act independently to develop their language skills. Their Chinese teachers are useless textbook orators for the most part, and only of some worth for reminding students which words to memorize for the CET.
Remember, we are in China. Students are not going to have many opportunities to organize moments where they can implement their "oral" English. But times when can read and write (in English) are plentiful outside the classroom. With the idea of forming linguistic settings as part of the teaching and learning process in mind, that is providing an English environment for students which otherwise would not exist, all English classes in China should have a heavy "oral" emphasis. Anyone can read a book at home; ABC letters will not suffocate and wither outside the classroom in a Chinese environment. However, opportunities to practice and learn to communicate in English are minuscule when everyone around you is speaking Chinese. It is the teacher and classroom which should be creating this otherwise near non-existent "English" world in China. |
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sheeba
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 1123
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:16 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies !!
Couldn't agree with you more in this one ShanShan  |
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China.Pete
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 547
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:49 am Post subject: English As a Dead Language |
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"Why an entire education ministry wishes to produce a nation of mute English speakers is a peculiar question indeed. Every English class should be an English class." -- Shan-Shan
Absolutely. Every oral English class should be regarded by the FT as an opportunity for a good, four-skills-plus English course, preferably with a decent textbook to provide the necessary support for the students and their (possibly inexperienced) FT. China seems to have acquired it's language teaching methodologies from 19th-Century missionaries (the grammar-translation method), in a period when few people traveled, and the most admired languages were classical Greek and Latin -- dead languages that few people could speak anyway. |
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Shan-Shan
Joined: 28 Aug 2003
Posts: 1074
Location: electric pastures
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| China seems to have acquired it's language teaching methodologies from 19th-Century missionaries (the grammar-translation method |
And following from that tradition, English texts in many Chinese English teachers' classrooms exist only to be dissected with the grammar scalpel. The word on the page, the sentences, are only viewed as components of a linguistic system to be understood at an atomic level, and memorized for questions about its structure on some test in the future.
This is a very unfortunate reality of foreign language learning in China. The goal in most cases is understanding English as a set of rules, and not as a tool for communication. I hope that FTs can take the opportunity afforded by the "oral" English class, especially those without a curriculum and tests, to steer students towards a degree of communicative competence. Their Chinese English teachers are rarely allowed by the administration to pursue this particular goal. English for them is mastering the past perfect in isolated instances without context, and without the intention of communicating with someone through the language.
Language without an audience. Ridiculous. I still feel a twinge of sadness when I watch students outside reciting from textbooks to themselves. Tortured, convulted, something other than English: that's what I usually hear while watching them practice incomprehensibility with good hand gestures. Mumbled pronunciation, incorrect stress patterns, lack of intonation: that's the average Chinese speaker of English.
(The hand gestures are amusing: just a few days ago, I saw a student, earphones firmly in place, reciting along with god knows what from a text book. His hands were flapping all over the place in good Western man fashion, directing a symphony of Nonsense) |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:26 am Post subject: Re: English As a Dead Language |
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| China.Pete wrote: |
"
China seems to have acquired it's language teaching methodologies from 19th-Century missionaries (the grammar-translation method), in a period when few people traveled, and the most admired languages were classical Greek and Latin -- dead languages that few people could speak anyway. |
This is not a helpful observation, really!
First of all - the missionaries in the 19th century had demonstrably better successes than adherents of the "communicative approach" these days do!
The fact that they could study a "dead" language (such as Latin or ancient Greek) and excel at it proves that; apart from this their students also acquired good English, French or Russian skills whereas our students don't know how toorganise their thoughts properly before couching them in English. You can see the fruits of these missionaries' labour - English, Portuguese, French are firmly implanted in Africa, and French and English are still spoken with native-speaker-like competence in many Asian countries (French for example in Cambodia, Vietnam, Pondicherry).
There is nothing wrong with the study of grammar and everything wrong with the overemphasis on "speaking" a language students don't even begin to understand.
Chinese students generally can't understand more than a few words in every sentence, and they are hopelessly lost because they have never learnt to understand English on its own, without rendering every word into Chinese.
They certainly don't study too much grammar but too many words. And they study them the wrong way.
There is this misconception that speaking English is about fluency (60 words per minute?) there can't be any progress on the quality front.
Since Chinese even rely on seeing the characters of Chinese on TV screens when they listen to a Chinese dialogue it should not surprise us that they cannot understand the invisible English word enunciated orally; remove their textbooks and see how they are struggling! This struggling is, perhaps, the necessary birth pang they all have to experience before they start talking in, and LISTENING TO, English.
Tell them to stop practising reading aloud! Tell them to listen to each other speak English!Tell them to watch English TV newsreels (with no dubbing!).
And do tell them that reading an untranslated work of fiction is more helpful to their comprehension and grasp of English than memorising entire passages!
Because right now, students do memorise whole texts - transforming them intp ah so dumbed-down Chinglish - and rehearse them in front of their teachers to show "I speak English". |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| First of all - the missionaries in the 19th century had demonstrably better successes than adherents of the "communicative approach" these days do! |
I'd be very interested in reading up on the history of English teaching in China - Steppenwolf could you please give us a reference to this incredibly revealing information.
I'd also be interessted in their methods - did those misionaries instill a fear of god into their students to get those outstanding results - and could we FT's adapt this technique - you know the fear of becoming the class-fool 
by the way steppenwolf lets take two countries India and China - India becomes part of the British empire - large numbers of Brits take over there to govern(far out-numbering any missionaries) - India takes on English as official language - and hey presto lots of motivation to learn English - after this, kids, who are lucky enough to have school, learn English at all schools (missionary or whatever) - even after independance India keeps English as an official language (together with Hindi) - even more motivation to learn English!!!
And China - got those missionaries - but lacks something else......I got it - them missionaries ain't no use steppenwolf - oohhh China as a British colony - then your dream will come true:lol: 
A tip steppenwolf - when you give out info that in theory can be prooved or disprooved in an empirical fashion - then you realy do need a statistic or two to give it that wiff of beleivability - other wise you really do have to make it plain that it's only something you beleive in and can't be taken as hard fact  |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:57 am Post subject: |
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http://www.scholars.nus.edu.sg/post/india/hohenthal/5.2.html
By the way thats a reference for my last post - gives out that revealing figure of only 4% (est) of indians actualy use English - those missionaries can't have been that effective after all (and the article don't even mention those poor church-boys - it just drones on about English as an administrative and media tool etc etc) - but that number is actually 35 million people - so we'll forgive 'em anyways |
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dajiang
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 663
Location: Guilin!
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:52 am Post subject: |
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It's not about us, it's about them.
So, what do I get out of this whole ESL world? I get to teach kids stuff. That's cool.
What's the big deal about English anyway? It's a tool, so we teach em how to use it. In the meantime we teach them a lot more than idioms and silly rules. The students are in the middle here, we are not that important. It's about the students to be able to show themselves and find their way in life, and they just might get a little bit farther if they use English every now and then.
If they've improved just a little by being with you in your class, then you've done a good job. And vice versa. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| What's the big deal about English anyway? It's a tool, so we teach em how to use it. In the meantime we teach them a lot more than idioms and silly rules. |
For me, one the wisest things I've ever read here - that was a gem of a post |
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The_Prodiigy
Joined: 01 Apr 2006
Posts: 252
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Shan-Shan wrote: |
[ The word on the page, the sentences, are only viewed as components of a linguistic system to be understood at an atomic level, and memorized for questions about its structure on some test in the future.
This is a very unfortunate reality of foreign language learning in China. The goal in most cases is understanding English as a set of rules, and not as a tool for communication.
Language without an audience. Ridiculous. I still feel a twinge of sadness when I watch students outside reciting from textbooks to themselves. Tortured, convulted, something other than English: that's what I usually hear while watching them practice incomprehensibility with good hand gestures. Mumbled pronunciation, incorrect stress patterns, lack of intonation: that's the average Chinese speaker of English.
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Right on, Shan-Shan.
So often we hear in university classes students trying to enunciate a simple sentence or word and the teacher trying without success to grasp the intended meaning.
Grammar and spelling skills are strongest but English for communication and knowledge about the cultures that go hand in hand with the language require vast improvements. Listening to FTs and being encouraged to respond in kind is vital - the more exposure the better. |
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richie122
Joined: 15 Nov 2004
Posts: 101
Location: Seattle, Wa, USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:30 am Post subject: |
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To the OP:
Went through the same thing when I first came to China. I arrived the college on a monday, and was expected to teach my first class on Wednesday. I had no problem with this, except when I asked for text books and a curriculum, the FTO informed me that I need to write my own curriculum. The best part of it. It was due before class on Wednesday.
I don't need to bore you with details from the first year of "teaching" oral English, but let's just say that the students, "Speaking English is not well."
My opinion is that students that want to improve their spoken skills do it out of class. Not from two hours a week. |
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