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nickelgoat
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 207
Location: Where in the world is nickelgoat?
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 Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:37 am Post subject: ..... |
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Last edited by nickelgoat on Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Is any democracy truly a democracy?
You could argue that some American states laws on abortion, the death penalty and election rigging have yet to make it into the 20th century, let alone the 21st.
This Japanese case cannot be prosecuted as legislation banning surrogate births was denied due to opposition by lawmakers in the ruling Liberal Democratic party.
Sounds like democracy in action to me.
Surrogate births are only banned through 'guidelines' imposed by The Japan Society of Obstetrics and Gynecology, none of whom are elected officials.
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nn20061016a3.html |
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luckbox
Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 180
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:57 am Post subject: Re: Is Japan truly a democracy? I have doubts - |
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| nickelgoat wrote: |
I was reading the Japan Times and the Daily Yomiuri today. A news article focused on a 50-something grandmother who had acted as a surrogate mother for her daughter and son-in-law, in their 30s, unable to bear children herself because of a hysterectomy. The baby has been born and was legally adopted by his biological parents. What stunned me was the governmental reaction, discussing (or may have put into place) a resolution calling for "punitive measures" against those gynecologists and possibly surrogates and parents involved in matters like this.
I find this extremely hypocritical in a society that is getting older and losing population. One would think a new baby would be welcomed whatever way it took to conceive it and get it born. There seems to be a mentality in Japan that the government controlls everything and you had better do EXACTLY as it says or you will be "punished".
What this government needs is to get these graying 50 and 60 year old males who make these laws out so Japan can move into the 21st century.
Does anyone else find views like this surrounding pregnancy and birth hypocritical? |
First, what does an issue of medical law/ethics have to do with democracy? Change your subject line. If anything, the government's response is an expression of democracy insofar as they are responding to the legalities involved, and the laws are made and passed by elected representatives. A critique of Japanese democracy is an interesting and necessary discussion, but not via an issue like this.
| nickelgoat wrote: |
| What this government needs is to get these graying 50 and 60 year old males who make these laws out so Japan can move into the 21st century. |
Let's ponder this one for a moment... are you suggesting that a government which does not recognize the rights of a woman to give birth to her biological grandchild to be an unprogressive government, out of step with the times, and undemocratic to boot???????? I'm failing to see the reason or logic in this argument. |
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nickelgoat
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 207
Location: Where in the world is nickelgoat?
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by nickelgoat on Tue Sep 18, 2007 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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luckbox
Joined: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 180
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| nickelgoat wrote: |
| What I am saying is that the Japanese system seems to be very punishment-oriented and threatening, in a way, toward anything they consider out of the ordinary. And the people follow, like sheep. They don`t seem to think for themselves. |
I take this criticism as a tad ethnocentric. What you see as blind obedience or "sheep" -- the Japanese may view as wa, or group oriented culture, or looking out for one another in the name of harmony and social cohesion.
Moreover, Japanese democracy is one of the few in the world that has adopted a progressive proportional representation style of government. This is way more progressive than my own country's (Canada) system of parliamentary, first-past-post system, in which the senate isn't even elected! And Japan's system looks pretty good when stacked up against the bizarre electoral college system of the US. Are there problems in the Japanese system? Hell ya, lots of problems. But to cite some obscure case in the field of medical ethics as some sort of commentary on the nation's democracy - well, I think you're a bit out to lunch. I suspect you're a pro-lifer with an ax to grind and will grind it at any glimmer of opportunity. |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| luckbox wrote: |
| I suspect you're a pro-lifer with an ax to grind and will grind it at any glimmer of opportunity. |
I don't think nickelgoat is a pro-lifer unless a very inconsistent one as this comment sits awkwardly in the pro-life philosophy.
| nickelgoat wrote: |
| One would think a new baby would be welcomed whatever way it took to conceive it and get it born. |
Well, fertility clinics throw away thousands of embryos as the use of so many increases the chances of fertilization. I think this may have been a different method of fertilization in this case but the "whatever way it took to conceive it" comment means that nickelgoat is not advocating a pro-life stance.
Although nickelgoat has shown a possible ax to grind as a previous thread on "xenophobic Japanese police" demonstrates.
The problem is nickelgoat has reached rather extreme conclusions because of a disagreement over a few incidents.
Yes, Japan has a number of problems it needs to address but the involvement of an elected government in investigating a breach of the law (albeit a law you don't agree with) is not a case of lack of democracy - the opposite, in fact, as those who elect their representatives have a right to expect them to uphold the law. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| nickelgoat wrote: |
| What I am saying is that the Japanese system seems to be very punishment-oriented and threatening, in a way, toward anything they consider out of the ordinary. And the people follow, like sheep. They don`t seem to think for themselves. |
Read this sentence back to yourself and you will see that it also applies to whoever wrote it.
Xenophobic nonsense.
Last edited by womblingfree on Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| the involvement of an elected government in investigating a breach of the law (albeit a law you don't agree with) is not a case of lack of democracy - the opposite, in fact, as those who elect their representatives have a right to expect them to uphold the law. |
IT ISN'T A LAW! The Japanese government are opposed to any such law. |
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Billy Chaka
Joined: 20 Oct 2003
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| nickelgoat wrote: |
What this government needs is to get these graying 50 and 60 year old males who make these laws out so Japan can move into the 21st century.
Does anyone else find views like this surrounding pregnancy and birth hypocritical? |
Read this article about what just happened in the United States:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/13/AR2006101300147.html?nav=rss_business
It's a different topic, but the point is that Japan's government isn't the only one making hypocritcal laws that don't belong in this century. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Billy Chaka wrote: |
| Japan's government isn't the only one making hypocritcal laws that don't belong in this century. |
Did I mention that it isn't a law?? 
| Japan Times wrote: |
No legislative measures have been introduced, due to opposition among lawmakers in the ruling Liberal Democratic Party.
The Japan Society of Obstetrics and Gynecology released guidelines in April 2003 banning surrogate births. |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| the involvement of an elected government in investigating a breach of the law (albeit a law you don't agree with) is not a case of lack of democracy - the opposite, in fact, as those who elect their representatives have a right to expect them to uphold the law. |
IT ISN'T A LAW! The Japanese government are opposed to any such law. |
Mea culpa! Surrogate mothers are not illegal in Japan but there is dialogue within the democratically elected LDP. My post doesn't alter the fact that this is not anti-democratic but, yes I was guilty of misrepresenting the argument. Sorry about that.
But Womblingfree, no need to shout.
| nickelgoat wrote: |
| Does anyone else find views like this surrounding pregnancy and birth hypocritical? |
This is not hypocrisy but something that could be considered counterproductive - if birth rate was the only concern. |
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womblingfree
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Posts: 826
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| Womblingfree, no need to shout. |
My apologies, no one seemed to hear me the first time, or the second time. |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| womblingfree wrote: |
| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| Womblingfree, no need to shout. |
My apologies, no one seemed to hear me the first time, or the second time. |
No problem, no need to apologize. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| What I am saying is that the Japanese system seems to be very punishment-oriented and threatening, in a way, toward anything they consider out of the ordinary. And the people follow, like sheep. They don`t seem to think for themselves. |
And, don't you think the parents are fighting this, and that they have backing by some people? Not all Japanese are sheep. Generalizing... |
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