Job Discussion Forums

[Tripmaster Monkey]

1. "Does anyone know where a pencil is to buy?"

I know this is wrong, but what are the rules being broken?

What about: "Does anyone know where a pencil to buy is?"

2. "It was interesting what he said."

Can this be correct? What is the rule being broken?

Note:
"Does anyone know where to buy a pencil?"
"What he said was interesting."
I know that these are the correct versions, but that's not what I'm looking for. My problem is explaining to students why 1 and 2 are wrong.


and


3. We're talking about using "where" in adjective clauses. Betty Azar (blue book, p.277, 13-7) says that prepositions are not included when using "where". For example:
I live in this building.-->This is the building where I live.
Right?

So...
what about

"New York is where I am from."

Why are we allowed to use "from"?

Is this an exception to a rule? If so, what other exceptions are there?

All constructive commentary is very much appreciated.

-TM

[Roger]

To me, these examples seem to be Germenglish.

Does anyone know where a pencil to buy is?

German: WEISS JEMAND WO EIN BLEISTIFT ZU KAUFEN IST?

It was interesting what he said.

German: ES WAR INTERESSANT WAS ER SAGTE.

In the latter case, in the English version I submit both are ungrammatical: 'It' and 'what'
both being subjects. The German would be correctly:
Was er sagte ist interessant (drop the 'es').

[leeroy]

"Does anyone know where a pencil is to buy?"

What about a direct question?

"Where is a pencil to buy?"

I dunno, it seems a little odd, but I'd see this as an infinitive of purpose kind of taking the place of an implied relative clause. Not 'incorrect' per se, just weird.

"Does anyone know where a pencil is (which I can buy)"

"It was interesting what he said"

This sounds OK in spoken English, the "it" cataphorically referencing to "what he said".

I don't have any grammar books in front of me though...

[Stephen Jones]

1. "Does anybody know where to buy a pencil?"

As Roger says the other version smacks of German and it totally wrong. The main rule that is being broken is that "pencil" is the direct object of the verb buy, and therefore must ALWAYS come directly after the verb if it is present in the same clause. This rule if English word order is cast in stone, and I cna't offhand think of any excepton to it.

2. "It is interesting what he said"

Perfectly oorrect. In written English you would probably phrase it "What he said was interesting", but the other phrase is more common in spoken English. In the example where you put "what he said" at the end you are making the theme of the sentence the fact that something was interesting, and the focus or new information bo be "what he said", whereas in the other way of saying it "What he said was interesting" you are making the theme "what he said" and the focus or new infomration the fact that it was interesting.

Other examples of the same construction, "it's really tiring, all this coming and going" or "iIt's ridiculous, grown men wasting all this time discussing silly grammatical points nobody cares about." Note that a comma is best placed in the middle of the sentence in the last two examples.

�. I don't have a copy of Betty Azar to hand, but if she stated it was a general rule that a preposition is not used in these cases with where, she is simply wrong.


Another examole: "I know where I've come from, and I know where I'm going to."

And of course you can have an adverb in these phrases."That's the area where aboriginal culture lives on."

[Tripmaster Monkey]

Thank you all for the helpful insights. Funny that you mention German because I'm in Asia. However, it was my major and the whole reason I have to ask these questions is that I put them on the exam as wrong answer choices. Doh! Maybe Deutsch is responsible for my predicament.

I think I'm squared away on #1.

As for #2, Stephen, I'm wondering what part of speech "what he said" is playing. Complement? Appositive? Given the comma, I'm thinking appositive. If it's an appositive, why wouldn't there be a comma in my original example?

Now #3 is killing me. Stephen, I'm afraid I've gotta cut Betty some slack. "I know where I'm going to." (I believe) is better as "I know where I'm going." The "to" is just another one of those accepted spoken things. I believe it's a dangling modifier. A colleague points out that prepositions might end a clause if they are 2-part verbs. That's definitely the case for "live on" and possibly for "come from". But, I don't see how "be from" could possibly fall into the 2-part verb category.

For the record, Betty uses these examples:
The building where he lives is very old.
The building in which he lives is very old.
The building that he lives in is very old.
The building he lives in is very old.

"If where is used, a preposition is NOT included in the adjective clause."

Again, thank you all for exploring the backwaters of our language with me.

[wanderlust1066]

[wanderlust1066]

[Stephen Jones]

Relative clauses and "wh" questions are the exception.

The example you give is a defining relative clause; think of "The thing (which) I need to buy is a pencil.

The SOED gives wish + infinitive as an example of the transitive usage of the verb. so "to buy a penciil" would be the direct object of wish. Change wish to want and it becomes clearer. "I want a coffee" "I want to buy a pencil"

"what do you want?" "What do you want to buy".

Perhaps it would be clearer if I said that you can't place anytning between the transitive verb and the direct object.

[Snoopy]

There is somebody in the room who I don't know who he is. "Of whose identity I am unaware" is a bit precious and "Who's that geezer?" is too informal.

[Stephen Jones]

"there's somebody in the room I don't know"

[Snoopy]

You can be aware of the identity of a person without knowing himlher.

[Snoopy]

What I'm really driving at is that it is easy enough to use an indirect question, but, as happens in speech, you embark on a relative clause, is there a way out of the tangle? "There were a lot of people at the party who . . ."