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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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 Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| basiltherat wrote: |
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| He could learn any language just by buying a few books and putting himself in an environment where he can hear it. |
thats cool. makes my life an absolute cushy number. thnx mate. any other advice gratefully accepted.
best
basil  |
Hey, any time!! By the way, how is the fermented horse urine in Kazakhstan? Do they throw Jews down the well? |
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guangho
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 476
Location: in transit
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Deconstructor wrote: |
| basiltherat wrote: |
| Quote: |
| He could learn any language just by buying a few books and putting himself in an environment where he can hear it. |
thats cool. makes my life an absolute cushy number. thnx mate. any other advice gratefully accepted.
best
basil |
Hey, any time!! By the way, how is the fermented horse urine in Kazakhstan? Do they throw Jews down the well? |
It's horsemilk and my godfather advises me against finding out
Seriously though your thesis is a little odd- after all, if you set your mind to it, you can teach yourself many things, especially with the advent of the internet as a research tool. If that is the case, does it mean that the very idea of education and educators is redundant? |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| guangho wrote: |
| [Seriously though your thesis is a little odd- after all, if you set your mind to it, you can teach yourself many things, especially with the advent of the internet as a research tool. If that is the case, does it mean that the very idea of education and educators is redundant? |
Well, let me put it to you this way: A few years ago I did a B.A. and a M.A. in English Lit. The only time that I attended class was when I had no choice: the professor demanded my presence if I were to get the marks. All other occasions I never set foot in the class. I found out all the deadlines for the books to read, the papers to write, then left. I would spend all my afternoons in the library after work. Why would I want to listen to a single opinion of a boring professor (and let me tell you, many of them were boring) when the world of the library was across the street?
You're right, I don't believe in formal education: it is boring and stupid. There is nothing you can't learn on your own. In fact the only reason I set foot in the university was because I needed that piece of paper that says give this guy a job.
This is why I say that the only good reason to set foot in a language class is when the student has no other means of practicing that language. And even then the only class worth taking is conversation. |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Deconstructor wrote: |
| guangho wrote: |
| [Seriously though your thesis is a little odd- after all, if you set your mind to it, you can teach yourself many things, especially with the advent of the internet as a research tool. If that is the case, does it mean that the very idea of education and educators is redundant? |
Well, let me put it to you this way: A few years ago I did a B.A. and a M.A. in English Lit. The only time that I attended class was when I had no choice: the professor demanded my presence if I were to get the marks. All other occasions I never set foot in the class. I found out all the deadlines for the books to read, the papers to write, then left. I would spend all my afternoons in the library after work. Why would I want to listen to a single opinion of a boring professor (and let me tell you, many of them were boring) when the world of the library was across the street?
You're right, I don't believe in formal education: it is boring and stupid. There is nothing you can't learn on your own. In fact the only reason I set foot in the university was because I needed that piece of paper that says give this guy a job.
This is why I say that the only good reason to set foot in a language class is when the student has no other means of practicing that language. And even then the only class worth taking is conversation. |
Deconstructor, it is no wonder that you have reached this idea that teachers cannot provide any help to their learners if your education is in English literature. But let's assume we are learning something that is a skill. How many surgeons could educate themselves in their field simply by burying themselves in books in the library?
Learning a language is also something that requires practice (if you are talking about learning Latin or ancient Greek then it would be different) and any serious learner of a language would benefit from a teacher (especially in the absence of a large English speaking community that they some into regular contact with). |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
Deconstructor, it is no wonder that you have reached this idea that teachers cannot provide any help to their learners if your education is in English literature. But let's assume we are learning something that is a skill. How many surgeons could educate themselves in their field simply by burying themselves in books in the library?
Learning a language is also something that requires practice (if you are talking about learning Latin or ancient Greek then it would be different) and any serious learner of a language would benefit from a teacher (especially in the absence of a large English speaking community that they some into regular contact with). |
First of all, I have a teaching degree also. Secondly, yes, there are many things for which you need practice, from surgeons to mechanics. No one in his right mind would argue against that. As for language learning, it is by no means a brain surgery. Yes, it needs practice too, so all one has to do is find someone to speak with.
Why do I need a teacher to tell me the difference between the simple past and the present perfect? Are you saying I can't find the answer in some book? |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Deconstructor wrote: |
As for language learning, it is by no means a brain surgery. Yes, it needs practice too, so all one has to do is find someone to speak with.
Why do I need a teacher to tell me the difference between the simple past and the present perfect? Are you saying I can't find the answer in some book? |
Learning a language is not brain surgery, it is true, neither is rocket science brain surgery. Nor is art brain surgery. The fact is there are plenty of types of education that require tuition. Learning a foreign language is one of those if you don't have access to that language group on a regular basis.
While there are plenty of people who can learn languages by studying on their own and immersing themselves in the language they plan to study there are plenty of learners who don't have these options available to them. Teachers of foreign languages, if they are competent (and that is the operative word, competency in teaching a foreign language has to be learnt by the teacher also) do more than simply explain the difference between the simple past and the present perfect, they can also guide the student in appropriate use of language, pronunciation, study methods, and a whole array of language-learning strategies.
We expect certain expertise in other fields and it should be expected in professional teachers just as we would expect expertise in other fields. If your gripe is that there are thousands of bad teachers who slip through the net then I would agree with you. But don't extrapolate from that that all teachers of a foreign language are engaged in a scam. |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
| We expect certain expertise in other fields and it should be expected in professional teachers just as we would expect expertise in other fields. If your gripe is that there are thousands of bad teachers who slip through the net then I would agree with you. But don't extrapolate from that that all teachers of a foreign language are engaged in a scam. |
If there are thousands of bad teachers, I don't know what it says about the profession as a whole. How do you separate the dancer from the dance?!
As for students, they don't want good teachers: What they want are teachers who would peddle easy answers to every complex linguistic task. They don't want to participate in language; they want short cuts.
Let me give you an example. I was recently teaching an advanced class. After spending weeks teaching them skills and strategies in dealing with context, vocab, grammar, etc. they would still read a paragraph and ask, "What does this word mean?". Now THAT is pathetic! |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| After spending weeks teaching them skills and strategies in dealing with context, vocab, grammar, etc. they would still read a paragraph and ask, "What does this word mean?". Now THAT is pathetic! |
Did you provide them with the tools to find the word? A dictionary, the knowledge of a dictionary? A couple minutes up at the board with a marker to draw a picture? Anything?
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| As for students, they don't want good teachers: What they want are teachers who would peddle easy answers to every complex linguistic task. They don't want to participate in language; they want short cuts. |
The path of least resistance...you'll find it everywhere including in Ohm's law, Canadian citizenship seekers, pizza delivery, and spray-on cheese. |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Guy Courchesne wrote: |
Did you provide them with the tools to find the word? A dictionary, the knowledge of a dictionary? A couple minutes up at the board with a marker to draw a picture? Anything?
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| As for students, they don't want good teachers: What they want are teachers who would peddle easy answers to every complex linguistic task. They don't want to participate in language; they want short cuts. |
The path of least resistance...you'll find it everywhere including in Ohm's law, Canadian citizenship seekers, pizza delivery, and spray-on cheese. |
What the hell do you think I'm talking about when I say skills and strategies? Do you think I'm referring to making toast?! |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Skills and strategies is a big area to work on...do elaborate.
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| Do you think I'm referring to making toast?! |
Dunno. But I'll tell you what..you can draw all the pictures and read all the toast recipes you want, but until it's on the plate and dripping marmalade, I'd have no idea if you could figure it out or not. |
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guangho
Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 476
Location: in transit
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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Did any of you read Chris Darden's biography? He has a section about how his father taught him to drive- by stomping on his foot and pressing down on the accelerator. Now, that is one way. Him doing it by himself is another. Watching someone is yet another. Being shown how is yet another. Being shown and having it explained to you before you try to do it through guidance works. Get the idea? So the question is, what is the most effective way?
-Stomping on his foot is cool and makes for a great story unless there is a fifty gallon tanker ten feet away,
-DIY is fine and dandy, except for the idea of a stupid sixteen year old (16 y.olds are by definition stupid- I should know ) guiding 50,000 pounds of steel.
-Watching someone is fine but seeing someone do it doesn't make you an expert. If it did I would be the next Jacques Cousteau.
-Being shown how to do it is okay, but it doesn't mean the same thing as doing it yourself.
-As for the last option, to me that's what teaching is supposed to be about. |
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Deconstructor
Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 775
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| guangho wrote: |
Did any of you read Chris Darden's biography? He has a section about how his father taught him to drive- by stomping on his foot and pressing down on the accelerator. Now, that is one way. Him doing it by himself is another. Watching someone is yet another. Being shown how is yet another. Being shown and having it explained to you before you try to do it through guidance works. Get the idea? So the question is, what is the most effective way?
-Stomping on his foot is cool and makes for a great story unless there is a fifty gallon tanker ten feet away,
-DIY is fine and dandy, except for the idea of a stupid sixteen year old (16 y.olds are by definition stupid- I should know ) guiding 50,000 pounds of steel.
-Watching someone is fine but seeing someone do it doesn't make you an expert. If it did I would be the next Jacques Cousteau.
-Being shown how to do it is okay, but it doesn't mean the same thing as doing it yourself.
-As for the last option, to me that's what teaching is supposed to be about. |
What you say make sense. How long should I show you how to do something before you think you can do it? Say, for example, do you think that learning a language is like driving a car? If someone said to you that he needs to sit next to you and show you how to drive for 3 years before you can learn to drive alone, you'd laugh at his face, but that is exactly what we do as teachers and students. We pretend that we need to give and receive all that help before we can do something on our own; and even when we are pretty good drivers, we still think there is something more to learn as we desperately seek an instructor.
What nonsense!! Show me how to do something, but also know when to let go. Let my mistakes be positive signs. Show me for a few weeks and let me loose. As long as I have a car, I'm on my way! In turn I as as student had better come to terms with the fact that I will never be as good as a race car driver, but as long as I go from point A to point be without killing myself, I shall be happy! |
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thrifty
Joined: 25 Apr 2006
Posts: 1665
Location: chip van
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:52 am Post subject: |
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| basiltherat wrote: |
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| He could learn any language just by buying a few books and putting himself in an environment where he can hear it. |
thats cool. makes my life an absolute cushy number. thnx mate. any other advice gratefully accepted.
best
basil |
Some "teachers" have a similar attitude. They don't bother with a degree or post-graduate qualifications and some even do a numpty unrecognised TEFL cert and then go on to "teach." |
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fluffyhamster
Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:53 am Post subject: |
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Analogies...hmm.
"Learning English is like driving a car".
Unfortunately every time you come back to step into this "English TX-1000", it's changed completely...
Continuing with the "driving" one though, could it be that students come to a teacher for a "crash course"? They expect to be shown all the rules of the road, and every twist and turn of every course they could conceive driving along. Pretending that the way will be smooth and straight if you simply check the rear-view mirror, insert the key and step on the gas won't be doing anyone any favours...least of all the teachers, who will probably fail to themselves develop linguistically if all they've got to flog is some pumped-up "strategies" pack.
Last edited by fluffyhamster on Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:16 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Jizzo T. Clown
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 668
Location: performing in a classroom near you!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Deconstructor wrote: |
| This is why I say that the only good reason to set foot in a language class is when the student has no other means of practicing that language. And even then the only class worth taking is conversation. |
In my case the students are immersed, but the only time they speak English (or even really come into contact with it), is in the classroom and not very often then!
They also have a VERY hard time finding their own answers--rather than try to work through an activity, many will sit there silently and wait for me to give them "the answer."  |
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