Job Discussion Forums

[leeroy]

I think it was Mario Rinvodolucri (sp?) who raged about conditional classification a while ago.

"If you're going to visit New York, you'll have to take a camera!"
"If she comes, don't tell her"

for example, do not fit into any of the "neat" 0,1,2,3 categories (in terms of form, at least).

Cutting Edge prefers not to deal with conditionals in such a way, instead preferring to use less concrete terms like "conditionals with would" and "real/unreal conditionals". Perhaps this is the way to go, but perhaps students like simplification and over-classification. As teachers, we can only do so much!

And, as Scot47 pointed out, if that's what they're tested - then that's what we'll teach.

[dreadnought]

I hate to promote another discussion site on such an esteemed forum, but the points that a lot of people make here are taken up (often in ridiculous detail) in Scott Thornbury's Dogme discussion group.

'Dogme' is Thornbury's stance against materials-driven lessons, and he advocates returning to a pre-methodological 'state of grace' where only the teacher and the students exist. The idea is that the teacher interacts directly with the students rather than handing out another photocopy or showing another picture. It's a very seductive sounding ideal and the initial article by Thornbury laying out his basic mission statement is definitely worth checking out. You find yourself nodding in agreement with all he says; however, when you think of the actual implications of trying to implement it, you realise it may not be as easy as he makes it sound.

The discussion forum can be very entertaining (just as this one can!), though there is also a lot of intellectual points-scoring as contributors try to show how many more books on SLA and methodology they've read than everyone else.

The link is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dogme/

[dduck]

Isn't simplification a necessary part of teaching grammar? Students can only process so much information at one time. Don't we need to simplify some parts to get the message (gradually) across?

[dreadnought]

This is not an attack on how teachers teach the four conditionals, more of a lament about how course book writers insist on dividing them up unnaturally to satisfy their need for a set of easily digestible grammar 'chunks' that can be expressed as rules.

If you think about it, the sentence 'If you're going to visit New York, you'll have to take a camera!' is no more complex than any of the four traditional conditionals; it just happens to convey a particular meaning, which is actually very clear from the context. I don't see how it is any more difficult for a student to understand that sentence than it is to understand 'if I pass the test, I will be very happy.' People might argue that the first sentence is an exception whereas the second is the norm, yet there is no evidence to suggest that this is the case, and i think our instincts also tell us that, in reality, people's use of 'if' phrases can not be easily divided up or neatly dissected as they are in course books.

The question is not whether we should simplify structures to make them easier for students to digest, but rather whether we should be teaching them sentences that have no communicative purpose or use to them in the real world. Language can be both simple and useful, but we shouldn't have to bend it completely out of shape for the sole purpose of extracting a pointless rule. Indeed, why do we need to have the rule at all? Surely it's the meaning of the sentence that is the most important thing, and if the students can discern that, then the question of whether it fits a rule is irrelevant.

Please, don't take this as an attack on the way teachers approach conditional sentences. Textbooks and exams often force us into teaching students language which has no communicative purpose. But since you ask how I would teach conditionals (and indeed how I DO teach conditionals), then it would involve taking some examples of 'if' sentences from real life (corpus websites are an excellent source of material) and asking students to try to work out their meaning. Let's imagine that these three sentences came up among the list:

- 'If you don't like carrots, why did you order them?'
- WE WOULD BE GRATEFUL IF CUSTOMERS WOULD USE THE LIFT
- If I haven't finished by then, I won't be able to come

None of these sentences conform to any of the rules of the four conditionals, yet I think even quite low level students could grasp the link between structure and meaning in each of them. What I wouldn't do is then try to stuff them into some meaningless grammatical category (maybe conditionals 5, 6 and 7?) which they could then go away and memorize and completely forget the meaning the sentences conveyed. Nor would I ask them to then write lots of other nonsense sentences to show that they've memorized the rule, like 'WE WOULD BE HAPPY IF GIRAFFES WOULD WEAR TROUSERS' or 'if you don't walk backwards, why did you buy Doctor Martens?'. Again, those kinds of activities only serve to widen the gap between structure and meaning, whereas the whole point of learning a language is to see how they complement each other.

[leeroy]

Sorry to get caught up on this Iain, but

If you're going to visit, you'll have to take =
If + future (going to), future (will)

If she comes, don't tell her =
If + present, present

The first sentence has the meaning of a first conditional sentence, which (according to the text books) should use the present tense in the first clause - instead, the future "going to" is used.

The second has a zero conditional form, but zero conditionals are (apparently) used to explain something that is always true - like "If you heat water, it boils." So, the second sentence is also a "first conditional" in terms of meaning, but with both sentences differing vastly in terms of form (in this case, tense).

The point of all this was that conditional sentences are not as predictable as course-books pretend they are....

[leeroy]

Well, someone was going to do it, right? From the COBUILD corpus online search facility...

- you may need from your doctor. If after your licence has been granted,
- Stevie Wonder. Let us play. P.S. If all else fails, you could always
- and we'll soon send you another. If any of your friends didn't get one,
- including those from the Soviet Union, if asked to do so. NEWSCOPY - ENDS.
- till one or the other is killed. If both fight bravely till they are
- a hospital. If that boy is dead, and if George was the one who killed him, it
- of the line, and this is doubly so if he (or she, remembering Harwick and
- But King does not know his player if he throws down challenges that doubt
- still maintain he wouldn't have netted if I hadn't have been crocked! So I know
- from anyone. I remember wondering if I were going to be as good a mother
- New York I would be less than honest if I did not admit to you my regret at
- hand, they should point to their hand. If it rhymes with knee, they should
- From Mr Robin Rhoderick-Jones Sir, If Joan Collins, a writer who, according
- of all, it is clear that many talents, if not Intelligences, are overlooked
- no hesitation in speaking his mind. If people disagree with him, or are not
- the spirit of this thing and I wonder if people in higher places knew more
- impossible to know if appliances work, if plugs are correctly installed, or if
- piles and it's best to visit mid-week if possible. Shallow draught boats
- put on a washing machine. It's easier if someone else does it. The other
- myself behind convenient curtains if spotty or shy. My hair has that
- including a great deal of background if the weather and light are against
- divide by 9, and note the remainder. If the remainder is 0, call this 9.
- than willing to give up the day job if the numbers on the contracts allow.
- and get shot dead because she said if the Serbs were going to get her, then
- who seem to live in the past, that if they force us we should not hesitate
- men trying to claw at the solid ice as if they could burrow into it. It was

So there are plenty of adherences to the 0,1,2,3 conditional "rules" - and plenty of exceptions too.

[Lynn]

My situation. I just agreed to privately tutor a woman from Japan. She is doing medical (Neurological research) at a famous university here in the states. Her professor, who is also the team leader of her lab and the cheif of neurology accepted her into the program because he was very impressed with her papers. (research papers?). However, he met her face to face for the first time 2 months ago and told her straight up,"I'm very disappointed you can't speak and understand English well" and has been quite cold and uncooperative since. He has also threatened to fire her unless her English gets better.

This is where I come into the picture. I'm going to teach her 3 times a week for 1.5 hours. Call me a pessimist, but I honestly don't think her English will improve much. She is about 45 years old and has the typical struggles of a Japanese learner. Her listening skills are very poor, and I can somewhat understand her professor's frustration.

She wants speaking and listening practice through everyday conversation. Will just practicing and me correcting her be enough? Like the students of the original poster, this woman knows already knows all the grammar rules and the tricks of pronunciation.

[Gordon]

Will you be teaching her 1.5 hrs/week or 4.5 hrs/week? At only 1.5 hrs, I'd say no way. If she is serious about her schooling, then she will need a lot more and she will need to practice her English every day, maybe with another student.

[Lynn]

[Sherri]

Lynn
I agree with Gordon that you haven't got enough time with the student. Am I right that you are based in New York? If so at least your student has the advantage of being surrounded with English. I would say that your role here would be as a guide towards teaching your student effective self-study and learning techniques. I really don't think that just having a conversation and correcting her mistakes is going to do it. Get her to keep a self-study journal and give her ideas on tasks that she can do on her own. Then when you meet up you can go through the journal with her, check her writing and listen to cassette tapes that she has made (get her to transcribe parts of the tape for analysis). Some examples of tasks could be:
1. to record first and listen to a short news segment on TV, then record herself retelling or summarizing the news story, follow up by transcribing and self-correcting her mistakes (grammar, pronunciation, organization, content, word choice, etc)

2. read a short newspaper article and make a short (1-2 mins) speech about it adding her opinion--same follow up as #1

Help her to identify her weak points (not just grammar!) and then set out a plan on how to tackle them. Hope this can be of help.
S

[dduck]

[dduck]

[Sherri]

Yes I can see where you are coming from Iain. I think the key words here are what I wrote-- "just" (having a conversation) and what you wrote --"realistic" (conversation).

It is all too easy for these free conversation lessons, as they are usually called in Japan, to become predictable exchanges on weekend plans or the like, or another term for the teacher doing all the talking and the student just listening.

I also have a problem when students say, "correct my mistakes when I speak." First of all, what kinds of mistakes do they have in mind? Usually they are thinking about grammar, but there are so many other things that usually need correction (structure, word choice, organization, pronunciation to name a few). While this is OK in limited circumstances, I wouldn't like to do this the entire lesson, every lesson. I would be interrupting the student all the time. Not just to correct, but to clarify and check meaning. It is not always easy to read the student's mind and know what he or she actually is trying to say and I don't like second-guessing. Japanese students have the additional problem of fluency and taking chances. They tend to speak very slowly and carefully (while translating in their heads and self monitoring) and will not say anything unless they can be sure it is grammatically correct. Of course it is hard to say what this particular student's weak points are, but I would hazard a guess that fluency is one of them. If her teacher jumps in and corrects (just limiting to grammar) it would not do much for her confidence--among other things.

You mentioned the word "realistic". That is very important, I totally agree. Conversation lessons can become very informal as the teacher and student get to know each other. But in work situations where students often have to use English, they will need practise with more formal language and handling subjects which are more abstract and complex than the standard "how was your weekend"-type conversation.

So unless the teacher is very experienced, a lesson based on (just) conversation and error correction is actually very difficult to teach. Also as far as improvement itself, we are not really sure what this woman's boss means by improve and what the teacher and student may see as improvement, may not be good enough for the boss.

I had a look at the dogme site a few months ago but haven't been back. I will have another look. I haven't used a textbook on a regular basis for years!

[Lynn]

Thank you both for the wonderful posts, Duck and Sherri. Boy, do I have my work cut out for me. She'll only be studying with me for 2 or 3 weeks because her lab is transfering to another university. We'll be having our lessons at Starbucks. She's very unusual. She's lived in New York for 2 months but has only been to two places: her university housing and the lab across the street. She doesn't have any friends, she doesn't like TV, and hates English. She said that her work is her hobby. She didn't even know what Starbucks was. (There are 149 Starbucks in Manhattan alone.)

She hates her boss and her life in the United States. During our talk she mentioned several times how she deeply regretted her choice. I have a feeling I'm going to be her sounding board more than anything. We talked for 2.5 hours (we got lost in her neighborhood) and she did 90% of the talking. When I did try to talk, she got very excited and cut me off. I was like,"okay, take it easy, let me finish." It was all so strange.

We have our first lesson tomorrow. I will tell you how it goes.

[Roger]

Maybe that Japanese woman is a lost cause...

Here some "cultural" background info so you see the real expectations from East Asian students, and how "realistic" these same expectations are from our point of view:

I took over a new class which supposedly is majoring in English at college level! They have had English for, yes, I kid you not: 5, some 6, a couple of them even for 7 years! At this stage, students in an African school or in Europe would be regaded as "adults" (and they are nominal adults by virtue of their age, which ranges from 19 to 24!).

I was not briefed on this class extensively enough, and I did not prepare my lesson specifically for this class, thinking I could recycle what I had done in other classes. Had I been briefed better, I would have known for a fact that I was going to teach this class two periods a time, two times a week. I thought they were going to have two periods a week only - like the rest of my students. Wrong there!
So much for how well organised schools in Eas Asia are, and how well communications run. Another angle to this particular problem: my students were the first to inform me that they were not going to come to class for the next couple of weeks because they are taking advantage of organised job fairs where they can apply for jobs (those that will graduate at the end of this term). The school confirmed this to me later. How can you stick to any teaching plan this way?

To come back to my new class of "freshmen": I tell them at the beginning of the lessons what we are going to do, having them repeat it in chorus. so, today I said, "we are going to learn how to apply for a job!" The class chorussed this nicely. Then, I added "we are going to write a curriculum vitae!" They repeated that as well.
Then I pointed to a girl in the second row from the left side of the room, and asked her, "Can you tell me what we are going to do?"
She stood up, looked bewildered and whispered to her neighbour. I gathered she was asking her what I had told her to do.
I asked the class: "What did I say?"
No answer.
Pointing to another girl, "You?"
A girl, standing up: "Please, can you repeat your question?"
Me: "Class, what did I ask these girls?"
No reply.
Me: "Alright, class, if you do not know what I asked these two girls, please, stand up!"
45 girls stood up, some promptly, some less promptly.

i repeated that we were going to write a curriculum vitae and learn how to apply for a job.
They repeated it in chorus.
I asked one girl, then another, then a third, a fourth, finally ten girls, each now "knew" what we were going to do, and they said it clearly.

Later, I told them a joke about George Bush meeting Hu Jintao. George Bush introduces himself as "My name is Bush, George Bush", Hu says, "my name is Hu Jintao!" George bush: "Who? Who are you?"
The girls see the joke.
But when I tell them that when they fill in their CV they have to give their full names, they are not sure whether they need to enter as their name "Jenny" or any of their English names IN ADDITION to their own names; some simply put their English names, others give their Chinese names only (without capitalising the initials!).

What I am trying to state is how set their minds and habits are. They understand the punchline of a joke but do not get the gist of simple instructions because they are used to doing things together, chorussing without thinking individually. THey cannot relate to Western culture (for example to how we give our names although this is a famous textbook case that anyone of them has "studied" at school!).
I found that rewarding them for cooperation, and "Punishing" them for lack of cooperation, is the best way - asking them to stand up until they come up with the correct answer does help in my classes!
It's sometimes even funny as in the case when I tell them, "Those who have paper and pen, please stand up!"
FIrst time, I asked "Those who DO NOT have paper and pen, please stand up!"
Of course, nobody stood up although several had come to class without the requisite materials!
Now atleast, they are paying better attention and do stand up if they do not want to be punished - by having to act as secretary writing on the black board!