Job Discussion Forums

[MELEE]

Here's my vote for Oaxacan news article of the day:

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/10/america/LA_GEN_Mexico_Oaxaca_Leftist.php

[ls650]

[thelmadatter]

Amen ls650

I was going to state the Mark in Mexico is not less credible than socialistworker.org. Both are equally ideological. Mark has the advantage of living there.

Gone (at least for now) are the days of "objective" journalism. Where there are news sources one can innately trust. Since the 1980's we've gone back to the Randolph Hearst days, when papers report based on ideology, even coming to the point of cheering one side or another.

At least I acknowledge the biases of my sources. A number of folks on Dave's give information from sources that I get the feeling we dare not question.

[J Sevigny]

That's the way it always is with news, isn't it? But I suppose it's particularly true in Mexico where newspapers are often forced, or bought into following una linea.

Best to everyone in Oaxaca.

[MELEE]

I posted a quote from an interview with an APPO member, so people could hear what the APPO were saying about themselves and the relationship between them and AMLO, I never intended it to be taken as "news". Mark in Mexico is not at all related to the APPO or the margenalized people of Oaxaca, and any of his posts over the last 2 years shows that.

[thelmadatter]

I see... so unless you are associated with the right people.... your opinions dont matter.

Sounds a bit elitist to me.

[Samantha]

I dunno, Melee, but from what I read I think he has kept a remarkable sense of humor under the circumstances. We are all pretty full of opinions in these parts and I think he has done a good job on that blog.

[MELEE]

Mark's just passing on information he got off the internet just like we did. People might as well be citing this thread as news.
There are those who suspect "Mark in Mexico" is written by Mark Leyes, the US Consul. He listed his contact as [email protected] But I wouldn't be shocked if it came out that it was Mark Leyes. Either way he's just a guy with a high speed internet connection sitting in the suburbs of Oaxaca. No more of an eye witness than I am, 150 km away.

[delacosta]

I've never really understood the whole right vs. left thing. I see it if you're talking about capitalism vs. communism (and all the spectrums between) but not when the fight is to establish justice or equal rights for those who have historically been given the short end of the stick.

Is the fight for native rights a left wing cause? Women's issues, racial equality?
Gay rights? Is one to be tagged as a lefty because one hopes that the sad state of environmental degradation requires more urgent attention than a return on profits and never ending economic expansion?

Because AMLO campaigned on behalf of the roughly 70 million poor in Mexico in a population with one of the most unequal wealth distributions in the world, he is a 'left wing populist'?

I've never understood why Chomsky, for example, is lumped in with the left when all he does is document truely brutal acts by his government in collusion with the economic elite, throughout the world. His academic research is impeccable, and everything he publishes is completely documented. There is no left or right in compiling facts. Not that the US is alone in such behavior, but as the most powerful nation in the world this is where his present research happens to focus.

It's beyond my understanding why one should be categorized as being 'left wing' in the Oaxaca situation- for supporting the causes of the hundreds of grass roots organizations trying to forge better and more fair living conditions in a state that has for centuries been governed by an undeniably unjust group of economic and political elites.

It would be great if a referendum could be held and the people be given a chance to democratically express their disgust with Ruiz and the PRI gang. Shortly after taking office, after having won via a fraudulent election, Ruiz began to harass, jail, murder, disappear and generally persecute all those who opposed him. The only newspaper, which I imagine some of you would qualify as �left�, that dared to document his excesses, was raided and shut down. In a testimony to the Oaxacan fighting spirit the Noticias de Oaxaca Voz y Imagen has managed to keep publishing this whole time.

When he sent in his police force and had helicopters drop tear gas on teachers protesting for higher wages Ruiz sparked what is now the APPO uprising. The APPO up to that point didn�t exist, they aren�t some guerilla organization that out of the blue decided to make life miserable for Oaxacans. They were supported, both morally and economically, by the vast majority of the middle class and by many of the wealthy families of Oaxaca. There was no �right� or �left� wing in the decision to remove a tyrannical ruler from power.

Ruiz and his gang represent the most ugly and uncompromising segment of Oaxaca�s ruling class and have refused to let go of power for almost 6 months now, in complete disregard for the suffering of its population. Various timely political considerations at the federal level have contributed to the dragging out of this situation. Historically these kinds of situations in Mexico have been resolved by the President, and currently, as has been demonstrated, a clear mechanism doesn�t exist for settling such situations. Of course it hasn�t helped that Fox has shown a complete lack of understanding and willingness to get involved.

Obviously such a situation cannot go on indefinitely and I don�t believe the APPO can count on the level of support at this point that it had at the beginning of the conflict. Ruiz is conscious of this fact and has been willing to let things deteriorate, banking on the fact that eventually people would not be willing to continue supporting a movement in the face of worsening economic hardships.

[Guy Courchesne]

Left vs Right is a blunt measure...something the politicians perhaps gave us, both in the US and Canada (and I'm sure in other places). Some of the core beliefs of the two groups apply to many of the issues you mentioned. One of those core beliefs is responsibility....whether it lies with society or with the individual. I would think it characteristically leftist to believe that the role of government is to manage society, correct social wrongs, and determine what a proper society is (generally speaking). On that, I hold many leftist leanings.

I would think it characteristically rightist to believe that the role of government is manage the rules of society to allow it to move in whichever direction it wishes (thinking economics mostly), create opportunities to correct social wrongs (think Affirmative Action vs Anti-discrimination legislation), and generally not interfere in the individual citizens' lives. On that I hold many rightist leanings.

Those are my own ideas on the two sides. I can see where there is a lot of overlap between the two sides and not a lot of it in actual practice out there. Note that I am not speaking here at all of religious beliefs or social agendas in this respect.

The issues you raise rarely come down to a yes/no answer or a fight or if there should be action taken or not. The issue is how.

Environmental degradation for example...look at the current fight on this. Left, right, center, black, blue, and green all know it's a problem. That isn't the question anymore. It's how to deal with it without turning society on its head. Rightist, who yes tend to support businesses, are pushing for a market solution in places like Europe and a coalition of NE US states. Some leftist..maybe better called Greens here, push for conservation, investment in alternate energy sources, etc, etc. Work on both fronts will come to a solution, but ultimately it is YOU that will implement it.

[MELEE]

Guy,

It sounds like you just might be a leftist libertarian!

http://members.aol.com/thegneech/leftlib.htm

To find out what you are here a quiz

http://politicalcompass.org/

[Guy Courchesne]

Do you remember that website questionnaire that Moonraven gave us...what, like over a year ago? I don't still have the link handy but anyone with significant time on their hands could search her posts to find it. I think I did come up leftie libertarian. Moonie fell off the left side the chart.

And thanks for that link Melee...that precisely sums me up, except for the gun control issues.

Doh! I didn't see the second link...the political compass..that's the Moonraven one I was referring to.

[thelmadatter]

[ls650]

On Saturday morning I got to see a real-life protest march here in lil ol' Huatulco. About 11:30 I was walking near El Madero (the one and only shopping mall) when I noticed quite a large group of marchers walking south on Calle Cardenas. The marchers were carrying large banners and chanting slogans such as "Fuera Ulises". My impression was that they weren't so much pro-teacher or pro-APPO as anti-Ulises. The crowd was well-organized with people of all ages. The marchers seemed to almost be in more of a party-mode as they were all smiling and appeared quite cheerful. Most of the onlookers on the sidewalk seemed more amused than anything else by the march.

Then as I watched, several taxistas became really upset that the march was holding up traffic for a whopping five minutes. Several of them started honking their horns and yelling and swearing at the rather mellow 'protestors'. Some imbecile in a delivery truck then swerved out of the stopped traffic and tried to force his way through the marchers, honking and swearing while waving his fist at them!

For a moment I thought things were going to get ugly, but the protestors just kind of put their hands up in the air and started telling the driver to relax and take it easy as they parted and let him drive through. The driver was really quite the a$$hole - I'm surprised he didn't get a well-deserved punch in the face!

The rest of the march passed by quite peacefully. I'd estimate the size of the march at about 2000 people. I found it very interesting as that's the first time I've seen any kind of political march here in our little burg.