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furiousmilksheikali

Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:07 am Post subject:

Cleopatra wrote:

I take it you are? Was it the drunken rants or the opportunistic change of worldview that won you over?

You can't beat Hitchens for a drunken rant. What he's doing cozying up to the Bush administration I don't know, he's been all over the shop recently (I think the realization that Kissinger had been there all along came as something of an embarrassment to him - he should have known better). This is funny though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYe8QzmM798

Cleopatra

Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:31 pm Post subject:

Quote:

You can't beat Hitchens for a drunken rant

You're absolutely right. I actually think he's a brilliant writer (much better than he is as a speaker) even though I disagree with virtually 100% of his recent political views. I do think that his 'change' is an opportunistic one: he figured out that neo-conism was more lucrative than Trotskyism in turn of the millenium America. Though who knows, now that the neocons have been utterly discredited, I wouldn't bet against "Hitch" suddenly rediscovering his old views. Will check out the video clip, provided the Saudi censors let me.

007

Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:47 pm Post subject:

Queen of Sheba wrote:

...Administration rarely supports our needs or understands our intent to provide a better education than they are used to in KSA. So is this really a big shock? I think its great they are taking notice of the problem, and in another 10 years, maybe we will see the much needed change in attitude towards education and teachers for that matter.

The problem of education in SA is not only caused by the lack of efficient administration, even if they have the best administration, I think, they will not compete with the world class universities.
The problem is more complicated than that, I think it is related to the political system, culture, traditions, academic freedom, etc. As far as there is not academic freedom and human rights in the sense of having teacher unions, or academic bodies, which are independent, the educational system in SA will not improve from the point view of science or academic advancement, etc. They have to give more freedom to universities, and get rid of the centrality of the administrative system. Also, the government needs to promote knowledge for anybody, anywhere, without restriction or censorship for their citizens.
As an example, look to the people of SA, in airport or in any public places, rarely you see them reading books or newspaper as a culture, as is happening, fro example in UK. So, I think, the educational system of a country is related to the culture of the country.

Do you know, that to discuss the issue of girls in technical education, one the conference organizational committee asked speakers not to discuss this issue in detail for the SA girls!!! So, where is the academic freedom in this case, I do not think the country will advance in science or education if they banning some of the books which do not satisfy their red lines!!!

Cleopatra wrote:

The Saudi Gazette is like "The Sun" or "Bild Zeitung" operating under strict censorship

I do not think that the Saudi Gazette is like the SUN! There is a big difference between the two, especially on what is censored. For example, in the SUN in Britain, you will find that they can write and criticize any Minister, regardless of his position, about scandals or wrong doings, take as an example the scandal of Honours for purgery, or sex and drunk scandals, of some of the political Ministers in Britain. Whereas in the Saudi Gazete, it is impossible and forbidden to write anything criticizing any member of the government or even questioning the acts of some of the Emirs!!!! Which means the Saudi Gazette has double red lines not to cross. And sometimes they have to get permission from the Government before they write any arcticle related to politics or religious issues.

Stephen Jones wrote:

..and also the fact that the US dominate the top 50 positions, and that Cambridge University, considered the second in the world in academic ranking

Yes, US and UK dominate the top 50-university position in the world, and this is because of the academic freedom, and the two countries value and encourage education for their citizens, and they spend billions of dollars and pounds for this purpose. BUT, there is another factor with these two countries, mainly US, you will find that most of the academics (especially the professors and researchers) are from foreign countries, like China, Africa, Poland , Germany, Egypt, Algeria, etc. and you will find that some of these professors received the Nobel laureate. If you check any department in any US university you will find at least a % of professors, who are not native, occupy the position of HOD, Vice-Chancellor, Directors of research lab, etc.

Unfortunately, in the Arab world, only Egypt who has 5 recipients of Nobel laureate. The gulf states all together have none! So you cannot build an educational system, which is lasting, only by money, you need more than that, you need culture of education for the whole citizen of the country.

The Palestinian Authority got 1 Nobel laureate (political), Yasser Rafat ( may God bless his soul).

Israel has got 8 Nobel laureates !!!!!

But, still I think there is some bias in the NOBEL prize system, especially in politics, where sometimes they give the Nobel prize to people who are close or working for the interests of some of the super-powers, or Israel.

Last edited by 007 on Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

veiledsentiments

Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:21 pm Post subject:

007 wrote:

Cleopatra wrote:

The Saudi Gazette is like "The Sun" or "Bild Zeitung" operating under strict censorship

I do not think that the Saudi Gazette is like the SUN!

007!! You must learn to read to the end of her sentence before typing off your long rants. See her last three words? "under strict censorship"!! Rolling Eyes

If you had read it, you would not have had to explain that SG is censored while the Sun is not... a point we all know and she had already mentioned.

It is why the threads that you are on keep getting locked.

VS

Queen of Sheba

Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:26 pm Post subject:

007 wrote:

I can see you have a reasonable grasp of the obvious.

Quote:

Unfortunately, in the Arab world, only Egypt who has 5 recipients of Nobel laureate. The gulf states all together have none! So you cannot build an educational system, which is lasting, only by money, you need more than that, you need culture of education for the whole citizen of the country.
The Palestinian Authority got 1 Nobel laureate (political), Yasser Rafat ( may God bless his soul).

Once again, this is obvious, yes the Nobel is questionable, and the Gulf Arab lack intellectual skills. Egyptians are among the most highly educated and politically charged Arab citizens, they also have a long educational lineage, history, and are overflowing with people and poverty - all key factors in being educated and concerned citizens, which, incidentally are in the reverse position in the GCC. Anyway...I would prefer being called an Egyptian to an Arab, if I were an Egyptian, wouldn't you?

Last edited by Queen of Sheba on Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

Cleopatra

Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Anyway...I would prefer being called an Egyptian to an Arab, if I were an Egyptian, wouldn't you?

Maybe - but then again, I don't see why Egyptians are any more or less "Arab" than, say, Syrians or Iraqis. Yes, yes, I know that the Egyptian Copts love to go on about their "Pharonic" heritage, just like the Lebanese Marnonites bang on about being "Phoenician". For all their alleged superiority, these people don't know that Muslims in what is now the Arab world have a long and often distinguished history too. But at the end of the day, "Arab" is really only a linguistic term, and some would argue not even that.

Henry_Cowell

Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:10 pm Post subject:

Stephen Jones wrote:

The list is partial; it is biased towards the Sciences and also excludes non-university institutions even though they perform the same function as universities; the 'grandes ecoles' in France or the Indian Institutes of Technology.

Also it will reflect past glories rather than present acheivments; Nobel prizewinners count for a pretty high proportion of points, yet there is a massive time lag between the research that leads to a Nobel prize being carried out and the prize being awarded (and of course an even greater lag between the work to set up the potential for Nobel prize winning research and the actual prize).

The 2006 rankings by the Times Education Supplement (based in London) has US universities as 7 of the top 10, and 11 of the top 20, world universities.

British universities have 3 of the top 10 places and 4 of the top 20. I don't see "Nobel prizes" or "past glories" among the criteria. Nor is the focus on "the Sciences." Wink

Stephen Jones

Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:28 pm Post subject:

Quote:

I don't see "Nobel prizes" or "past glories" among the criteria. Nor is the focus on "the Sciences." Wink

They are the criteria for the top 500 link; perhaps your research skills weren't up to reading them :D

The proportion in the TES list seems reasonable to me.

One thing we ought to remember when looking at the preponderance of US and UK universities is that they form part of an elite system, where you have world class universities at the top and near remedial insitutions at the bottom. Countries where there is a more egalitarian situation might well produce a greater number of well-educated alumni.

I reckon the average education level of a Polish graduate may well be higher than that of the average UK or US graduate.

Henry_Cowell

Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:39 pm Post subject:

Stephen Jones wrote:

They are the criteria for the top 500 link; perhaps your research skills weren't up to reading them .

I was describing the TES rankings and criteria as not measuring only the sciences or Nobel awards -- as you well know. Wink

Stephen Jones

Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124

Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject:

I'm downloading the THES figures now. As I said, the proportion of US universities in the top twenty appears about right. And having downloaded it I note it has both the grandes ecoles and the Indian Institutes of Technology and Management, which increases my confidence in the rankings. Incidentally, I am surprised at the number of Chinese universities in the list.

Henry_Cowell

Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:04 am Post subject:

Stephen Jones wrote:

Incidentally, I am surprised at the number of Chinese universities in the list.

I'm sure they paid well for the privilege. Wink

007

Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:59 pm Post subject:

Queen of Sheba wrote:

I would prefer being called an Egyptian to an Arab, if I were an Egyptian, wouldn't you?

I think if you ask an Egyptian where are you from, he will say that he is an Egyptian, like for example, Syrian, Algerian, etc. But if you ask him what is your race, he will reply that he is an Arab (not necessarily a Muslim, because the term Arab encompasses Muslims, Christian, Jews, etc ).
Also, you have to remember that the Egyptians call their country by:
"The Arab Republic of Egypt"
So, I think, the Arab race is a mosaic, which includes different ethnics with different backgrounds and religions.
Today, the word Egyptians often use for their country is Misr. Misr is an Arabic name simply meaning "country", and part of the tradition of this term in as a name for Egypt comes from the Islamic Quran.
It is interesting that the origin of "Coptic", a word which we today use to refer to the Christians of Egypt (and actually, the principle Christian church of Ethiopia, as well others throughout the world related to this form of Christianity), actually is derived from the word Copti. The Arabs who invaded Egypt in, like the Greeks, had problems pronouncing the term, Aegypti, which means "Egyptian citizen". Essentially, they changed the word to Copti. Of course, at that time, Egypt was a Christian nation, so the term became limited to actual Egyptian Christians as the country became more and more Muslim.
In summary, over several thousand years, environmental changes and foreign influences molded the gradual development of a civilization that was, in the final analysis, distinctively and uniquely Egypt. In ancient Egypt, the egg was seen as a symbol of birth and resurrection, and indeed, Egypt was as an egg itself, nourishing its people from within, while providing a hard shell to protect them from outside hazards and foreign interference, especially from the 'new Middle East Order' as suggested by GWB and his adviser Dr Rice!! Laughing

BTW, Egypt was the one of the founder of the Arab League in 1945, with Saudia, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, etc.
But, we have to mention that in Islam there is no difference between races, between Arabs and non-Arabs, and all are equal in front of Islam, regardless of their colour, background, ethnicity, gender, etc.

BTW, my King Cobra, which is now in Egypt needs to dig itself in the sand from time to time, to protect itself from the outside hazards ...now is under the Egyptian sun charging its battery for the next trip and adventure. ... Laughing

Cleopatra wrote:

�these people don't know that Muslims in what is now the Arab world have a long and often distinguished history too. But at the end of the day, "Arab" is really only a linguistic term, and some would argue not even that.

Muslims is not only the Arab world, it includes other nations who are not Arabs, like Malaysia and Indonesia.

Cleopatra

Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:22 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Muslims is not only the Arab world, it includes other nations who are not Arabs, like Malaysia and Indonesia.

Ii must come on to Dave's Saudi board more often - I learn things that I never had a clue about here! Thanks for that snippit of riveting, hot-off-the-presses piece of information.

Oh, and further to what VS said earlier, please read the entire context of what someone writes before totally misinterpreting them and going off on a tangent. If you had bothered to read the entire short paragraph, you would have seen that I started off by referring to the pretensions of some Arab Christians, before adding that such people are not the only Arabs to have a long and distinguished history.

In other words: think before you post.

Queen of Sheba

Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:42 pm Post subject:

Cleopatra wrote:

Quote:

Anyway...I would prefer being called an Egyptian to an Arab, if I were an Egyptian, wouldn't you?

I meant an Egyptian vs. a Gulf Arab, if you recall this was what the conversation with 007 was about, Gulf Arabs being inferior intellectually to other Arabs and he mentioned Egyptians. This was also a means of getting 007's inside opinion on the matter, and to spark his nationalistic nature and references to Egyptians. Which seems to have worked Twisted Evil

I agree that being called an Arab is often linguistic, but it's roots, the lingusitic as well as the historic, are religious and territorial to the Arabian bedu who spread Islam. The Arabians from the peninsula created the socio-religious "Ummah" under which all Muslims are a "family." This obviously spread into a linguistic family as well, but is not limited to that. Of course, it was revitalized by Nasser under Pan-Arabism.

I didn't mean to further provoke 007 with that one...but I will face the repercussions accordingly.

007

Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom

Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 8:50 pm Post subject:

Queen of Sheba wrote:

�.. Gulf Arabs being inferior intellectually to other Arabs �.

I do not think so, there are Gulf Arabs who are highly educated and intellectually equal to their counterpart the Egyptians. Because Egypt has big population, that's why they have great number of intellectuals compared to the Gulf states. It is a matter of quantity and not quality.

Quote:

.. to spark his nationalistic nature and references to Egyptians

I think I mentioned in one of my post that my native language is Arabic, so I am an Arab, but not from Egypt, I let you guess. Laughing

At the end, I think race or ethnicity does not matter, because I believe the origin of all human beings in this earth came from a single origin, which is a single pair of ancestors, Adam and Eve.

BTW, During the Middle Ages Arabic was also a major vehicle of culture, especially in science, mathematics and philosophy, with the result that many European languages have also borrowed numerous words from it. Laughing

Quote:

.. Of course, it was revitalized by Nasser under Pan-Arabism

But, the Pan-Arabism of Nasser did not, and will not work. The Arabs cannot be united under the ban of 'Arabism' or 'Tribalism', That's why also Colonel Kaddafi tried to unite the Arab countries, but also he failed.

Quote:

�I didn't mean to further provoke 007 with that one �

No problem, I am not a fun of Pan-Arabism, and there is no repercussions as far as you provide a scientific, historical, or linguistic evidence for your discussion, I will be more than happy to accept your argument.

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