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SeasonedVet

Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 236
Location: Japan

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject:

Interesting post c-way.
here are some things I would not try though :

Quote:

I myself confiscated cell phones, mirrors, and makeup, woke sleeping students, and silenced talking students when I first arrived. One student became so angry when a snoopy keychain broke when I confiscated his cell phone that he slammed his books repeatedly, spit on the floor and made gestures suggesting physical aggression.

Quote:

I tore up another students manga books after he physically rebuked my JTE, who tried to confiscate the books. After I did so, he pushed me three times and when I ushered him out of class, he ripped my shirt.

Quote:

One fellow teacher was offered to a fight off-campus when he tried to assuage the students anger over a soccer game in PE class. That boy was not punished. He was told "not to use foul language".

and I'll tell you why I wouldn't.
I mentioned before, you have to check the tone of the school. If that type of situation is prevalent at the school and things go unpunished why get into potentially violent situations where I am sure that there will be little or no redress for the ALT.
And after having gone through all the trouble will it have benefited anyone? Will anything at the school change?
I am skeptical when posters say put your foot down without giving good examples of how to do it. That can lead to big problems for an inexperienced ALT and even for the experienced ones.
Good to see that some posters have offered the "how" to do it properly so I don't have to go over that again but I will mention this:

It is always a good idea to befriend students. if you go in seeming all bold and bad and trying for discipline, the kids weill see it as "kowai"
I have heard alot of kids at one school talking about a particular JTE. They ALL say the same thing. They say he is a Very Good Teacher They all say that his explanations are easy to understand. But they ALL say that he is Kowai and they try to avoid him. Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying that he is wrong, his classes are usually very disciplined. The kids know not to fool around in that class but he doesn't have something that is very important. He doesn't have their confidence.

In addition to that, we are not Japanese. These students usually do not have the chance to interact with foreigners other than with us. I am sure that they don't want to see us as disciplinarians only. I think they would much rather have our confidence.
Let me share a little experience with you. My first lesson with this class.I was in the classroom standing in front of the students and already warming up.Iin comes a student late and Loud Now at that particular school it is normal for kids to be loud. I don't just let them be loud though but at the same time I don't jump all over them for it because it would be like throwing water into the sea or vice versa, for as soon as you finish correcting them they do it with another teacher or even in the teachers room and all is well. So you will see how futile it can be.
Anyway back to the experience, That student the loud one turned out to be the most interested in English. I befriended her and she I within the classroom (now if she sees me outside the school also she says hello and she even introduced me to her mom)
And guess what, through her all the other disinterested, make up loving loud girls who just happen to be her friends have come over and have started paying more attention through her.
It was after that that I noticed something. The students who are loud and always trying to stand out usually ( not always) have alot to offer. It just needs to be channeled in the right direction.
Had I come down on her like a ton of bricks, I think I would have lost a golden opportunity.

Everybody's experience might be different and schools all tend to be different so take what you will from what I have posted and leave the rest and the same for any post.
I am in no way saying that teachers should let students do whatever they like in class because the school allows it. Some posters here have given good suggestions for discipline and class control. I am just adding another perspective.
I myself don't like a class out of control and I prefer to be in control at all times ( although I have found it a good idea to cede control to at least one student sometimes. when given responsibility they either shrink from it and become quiet or they excell in it and marshall the other students to participate.
Last line edit.

Last edited by SeasonedVet on Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:02 am; edited 2 times in total

johncanada24

Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 119
Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:46 pm Post subject:

SeasonedVet wrote:

Interesting post c-way.
here are some things I would not try though :

Quote:

One fellow teacher was offered to a fight off-campus when he tried to assuage the students anger over a soccer game in PE class. That boy was not punished. He was told "not to use foul language".

and I'll tell you why I wouldn't.
I mentioned before, you have to check the tone of the school. If that type of situation is prevalent at the school and things go unpunished why get into potentially violent situations where I am sure that there will be little or no redress for the ALT.
And after having gone through all the trouble will it have benefited anyone? Will anything at the school change?
I am skeptical when posters say put your foot down without giving good examples of how to do it. That can lead to big problems for an inexperienced ALT and even for the experienced ones.
Good to see that some posters have offered the "how" to do it properly so I don't have to go over that again but I will mention this:

It is always a good idea to befriend students. if you go in seeming all bold and bad and trying for discipline, the kids weill see it as "kowai"
I have heard alot of kids at one school talking about a particular JTE. They ALL say the same thing. They say he is a Very Good Teacher They all say that his explanations are easy to understand. But they ALL say that he is Kowai and they try to avoid him. Don't misunderstand me, I am not saying that he is wrong, his classes are usually very disciplined. The kids know not to fool around in that class but he doesn't have something that is very important. He doesn't have their confidence.

In addition to that, we are not Japanese. These students usually do not have the chance to interact with foreigners other that with us. I am sure that they don't want to see us as disciplinarians only. I think they would much rather have our confidence.
Let me share a little experience with you. My first lesson with this class.I was in the classroom standing in front of the students and already warming up.Iin comes a student late and Loud Now at that particular school it is normal for kids to be loud. I don't just let them be loud though but at the same time I don't jump all over them for it because it would be like throwing water into the sea or vice versa, for as soon as you finish correcting them they do it with another teacher or even in the teachers room and all is well. So you will see how futile it can be.
Anyway back to the experience, That student the loud one turned out to be the most interested in English. I befriended her and she I within the classroom (now if she sees me outside the school also she says hello and she even introduced me to her mom)
And guess what, through her all the other disinterested, make up loving loud girls who just happen to be her friends have come over and have started paying more attention through her.
It was after that that I noticed something. The students who are loud and always trying to stand out usually ( not always) have alot to offer. It just needs to be channeled in the right direction.
Had I come down on her like a ton of bricks, I think I would have lost a golden opportunity.

Everybody's experience might be different and schools all tend to be different so take what you will from what I have posted and leave the rest and the same for any post.
I am in no way saying that teachers should let students do whatever they like in class because the school allows it. I Some posters here have given good suggestions for discipline and class control. I am just adding another perspective.
I myself don't like a class out of control and I prefer to be in control at all times ( although I have found it a good idea to ceede control to at least one student sometimes. when given responsibility they either shrink from it and become quiet or they excell in it and marshall the other students to participate.
Ahhh there is so much more to say ...

I like your suggestion and I agree with it. Thankyou for that. I don't have any experience in classroom management but your post gave me a good perspective. On the other hand i do understand that you have to have some consistency with discipline; it's just a matter of balance

Sweetsee

Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 2302
Location: ) is everything

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:41 pm Post subject:

Very interesting post SeasonedVet, thoroughly enjoyed reading that. Can I ask you how you deal with students who have done nothing all the year and fail to score the 30% needed to pass? Thanks in advance. Enjoy, s

Gordon

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan

Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:43 pm Post subject:

Sweetsee wrote:

Very interesting post SeasonedVet, thoroughly enjoyed reading that. Can I ask you how you deal with students who have done nothing all the year and fail to score the 30% needed to pass?
Thanks in advance.
Enjoy,
s

They only need 30% Laughing

That's not setting the bar very high is it? It's 60% at my school.

SeasonedVet

Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 236
Location: Japan

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:56 am Post subject:

Sweetsee wrote:

Quote:

Conditions are different at different schools (and apparently pass mark).
It sems that you have to be concerned wiht if the kids pass or not. Some ALT's don't.
Having said that however I don't think that we can force students to learn.
We are working in a system that's far from perfect.

I have noticed student's at a particular school ( and I wonder for how many schools across Japan this is true for) who do absolutely nothing all term all year or do the bare minimum or copy ansewrs from friends. And the thing I find amazing is that the teachers usually tell them exactly what the test will be about and the exact chapter of the text, then the tests seem word for word sometimes.
So what I am saying is that student attitude comes from what they know the system to be and what they can do and what obtains.
They know that it is ok to do nothing and sleep in class and then ask the teacher what the est will be about and the teacher tells them.
Working with a system like this I really cannot go after all of the students who prefer not to do anything and then ask the teacher what the test will be about. Again the word futile comes to mind.
However you are free to do what you will in your class. But if students know that the system allows them to sleep etc etc then the question is should we fight against the system by trying to get that student to learn?

Sweetsee let me stop going on and answer your question more directly:
I think it would take a different system of grades within the classroom. A system where students understand that they will be tested and graded like ongoing grading that will count towards the final mark. If they knew this they would pay more attention. If they knew that lots of stuff they do in class would be graded and go towads the final overall grade they would sit up and do what's necessary.
That plus groupwork for a grade also. I have found that very interesting group or pairwork really gets them going. Especially if it is a project that they have to present as a group in front of the class they really get into it.
It can be something simple. In one class we did telephone conversation.
I created the "print" as they call it here ( handout). I usually prefer to write with a marker pen as opposed to typing as I find that handwriting has more personality and character.
after we did all the stuff, reading, fiiling in the blanks etc etc. conversation in pairs etc, Their next task was to create a conversation in groups with a problem attached, and they had to (use critical thinking skills) to solve that problem while creating the conversation.
The idea for the groupwork was not mine in this case it was the JTE (hurrah).
The students really got into it. There was one girl who usually wrote Nothing and I mean Nothing in class but would be fiddling with her phone all lesson. Even she got into it. ( but sadly there are some students who even if you stand on your head they would not be interested but I think with the right conditions and over time they will come around).

Venti

Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 171
Location: Kanto, Japan

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:41 am Post subject: that's right

Seasoned Vet wrote

Quote:

I have noticed student's at a particular school ( and I wonder for how many schools across Japan this is true for) who do absolutely nothing all term all year or do the bare minimum or copy ansewrs from friends. And the thing I find amazing is that the teachers usually tell them exactly what the test will be about and the exact chapter of the text, then the tests seem word for word sometimes.

Yeah, I've worked at 13 schools and, with the exception of one, the same thing happened at all of them. Teachers say they know how much the students dislike English and how hard it is for them, so they try to make the courses as painless as possible by being lenient. I've seen some students receive back from the teacher A-grade papers that were full of grammar and spelling mistakes (not to mention often half in katakana). These were 9th graders who had already been studying English for two years. It's amazing that JTE's can make a living by doing such a sub-par teaching job. The sad thing is that this wasn't discouraged at all by the higher-ups. Jaa, shougani ne. Seito ni totte Eigo ga honto ni muzukashii ne.
I used to sit in on Japanese classes as well as math classes (even team taught the math classes sometimes) and was always surprised at how much the students sat up and took an interest in the subjects, especially Japanese. Of course, I can understand the higher level of interest in their own language. Japanese language teachers and math teachers always seemed to expect more from the students and the students, in turn, usually delivered. The English classroom situation was always a lot different.
Yeah, when it comes to English education in Japan, the system is broken. How to fix it? I don't have too many ideas, but it would probably improve a lot if native English speakers, who are also fluent in Japanese, are brought in to teach the classes not as ALTs, but real teachers. It works in Europe. (of course, in Europe the fluency is not in Japanese Wink

)

Just my two cents

Sweetsee

Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 2302
Location: ) is everything

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:40 am Post subject:

Thanks for that you guys, very interesting. If I could just ask you one more thing SeasonedVet, about the telephone conversations, what types of problems were the students solving? Also, for the failing students I am asking them to correctly complete their course books in exchange for a passing grade. What do you think about that? Thanks in advance! Enjoy, s

c-way

Joined: 19 Nov 2004
Posts: 226
Location: Kyoto, Japan

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:13 am Post subject:

Quote:

SeasonedVet wrote:
Interesting post c-way.
here are some things I would not try though :
Quote:
I myself confiscated cell phones, mirrors, and makeup, woke sleeping students, and silenced talking students when I first arrived. One student became so angry when a snoopy keychain broke when I confiscated his cell phone that he slammed his books repeatedly, spit on the floor and made gestures suggesting physical aggression.

Quote:
I tore up another students manga books after he physically rebuked my JTE, who tried to confiscate the books. After I did so, he pushed me three times and when I ushered him out of class, he ripped my shirt.

Quote:
One fellow teacher was offered to a fight off-campus when he tried to assuage the students anger over a soccer game in PE class. That boy was not punished. He was told "not to use foul language".

and I'll tell you why I wouldn't.
I mentioned before, you have to check the tone of the school. If that type of situation is prevalent at the school and things go unpunished why get into potentially violent situations where I am sure that there will be little or no redress for the ALT.
And after having gone through all the trouble will it have benefited anyone? Will anything at the school change?

You make some very good points, and in many classes I no longer bother trying to police my students by confiscating cell phones and the like, or even trying to engage students who are clearly not going to respond.

However, I don't feel that these attempts at having a well structured, well ordered class are all for not, and fighting for these things is not necessarily all for not. When I first arrived at my school, I of course really had no idea what the culture of my school was. I set out the rules of my class to provide students from the start with a framework and proper boundaries that would make the classroom more conducive to teaching. I knew that if I had to compete with cell phones and every other imaginable form of distraction, then I was going to lose out a good number of students from the beginning.

What I came to find is that my JTEs in fact act as conditioned stimuli for what is permitted and not permitted in my class instead of myself. To be blunt, I don't where the pants in my team teaching family. I had 4 different JTEs and I came to find that 2 of them enforced these same rules in much the same way that I did in their own classes. Therefore, in these classes, confiscating a cell phone was much less surprising to students and I found myself having to confiscate far less cell phones in these classes because students were not blatantly using their cell phones in the open. These classes on the whole were better behaved and even the "problem" students in these classes were not such a big problem. Basically, by laying out the rules and enforcing them, my JTE, not myself, had "taught" students why following the rules was important.

And in the classes with my other two JTEs I'm sure you can imagine how the situation was different. Students were allowed to talk, read, use their cell phones, stand up, walk around, sleep and do almost anything else they wanted to in my JTE's class, and they took my class to be the same way. So, oh how shocked they were when I took 6-7 students cell phones away (THey were so comfortable that I could literally walk right up to them and slide the phone right out of their hands) in the first few classes.

The culture of my school turned out to be a mixed bag, with the overriding characteristic that there was No unified policy at the school level. Incidents were taken case by case when brought to the VP or Principal, and I get the impression that this only happens when an incident demands that it be addressed. Otherwise, it stays in the classroom. The teachers deal with it in their own individual ways, which I imagine can be very confusing and seemingly unfair to students that rules and discipline can vary from class class.

Now, you asked why get into a potentially violent situation if there will be little redress for the ALT. Excellent point, and I have since stopped my efforts in the classes where the JTEs do not enforce the same rules. In the other classes I now find that most students can be convinced to put their distractions away if I merely touch the item, as if to say "I could have taken it just now, but I didn't". When the first incident occurred with the cell phone and the Snoopy keychain, I actually had no idea that I was in a potentially violent situation, but was shocked by had emboldened students at my school were.

Thus, when the next incident occurred, with the manga book, I waited at least 3 minutes, trying to go about me lesson, while my JTE made every effort, of her own discretion, to confiscate this book. My JTE reached down to take the books (there were 2) from the boy, he swatted her hands away, which caused her to lose her balance and hit her head on the table behind her. In my younger days there were still be pieces of that boy stuck to the ceiling, but my reasoning at that point, was "no book, no problem" so I ripped it up.

And in the third situation, Well that "fellow teacher" is a JTE, so take it for what it's worth.

I too have taken great strides to befriend most of my students and I now find myself even trying to like, and in a roundabout way, win over the worst students. But I believe that these incidents at my school were worth the trouble bc/ I think I there are a number of quiet, shy, obedient, intimidated students that in fact want to learn and can't stand the fact that that opporunity is impinged upon by those "problem" students time and time again. I think they would love for every teacher to put their foot down and for the culture of the school to change. So when they see me going through the trouble of providing that for them, maybe it opens them up to me a little more. And maybe they then work a little harder to figure out this freaking "to be" verb.

I would love to be friends with all my students, but if I have to choose whose interests to work towards, I tend to side with these students.

JimDunlop2

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 2286
Location: Japan

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:09 am Post subject:

When my wife worked at a private high school (that was SUPPOSED to be presitigous) the pass mark was 30% too... It was not oft spoken of, but everyone knew it and of course, the students didn't give a toss about doing ANY work in class, let alone homework or even studying for tests. It was even found out that some students were allowed to miss midterm exams because of other "conflicting" extra-curricular activities... Sad thing is, this is also a feeder school to a local university college... But since it's a private school, many students who attend got admitted to the school NOT because of their grades in Jr. High but because of the money that mom & dad forked out to keep their little darlings out of the technical high school -- which would have been the only school left to accept such low grades. Anyhow, my wife quit after only one semester and got something far better -- she's very happy now.

Sweetsee

Joined: 11 Jun 2004
Posts: 2302
Location: ) is everything

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:52 am Post subject:

Nice one C-way How long did it take you to reach the point where you are now? Still at it? Thanks in advance. Enjoy, s

SeasonedVet

Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 236
Location: Japan

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:13 pm Post subject:

c-way wrote:

Quote:

But I believe that these incidents at my school were worth the trouble bc/ I think I there are a number of quiet, shy, obedient, intimidated students that in fact want to learn and can't stand the fact that that opporunity is impinged upon by those "problem" students time and time again. I think they would love for every teacher to put their foot down and for the culture of the school to change. So when they see me going through the trouble of providing that for them, maybe it opens them up to me a little more.

Shows you care about you job. I hope everything goes well.

SeasonedVet

Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 236
Location: Japan

Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject:

Sweetsee wrote:

Quote:

what types of problems were the students solving?

On reflection maybe I shouldn't have called it a problem, but for students who are accustomed to just regurgitating stuff I call it a problem.
A young man calls his girlfriend's house and her father answers the phone, the father doesn't like the boyfriend ..... they have to take it from there.
It was interesting the stuff they came up with to get around the "problem" of the father.
another good one is getting students to work in small groups to give advice to people who have problems. They will have to THINK for that one and come up with ideas and solutions.

Quote:

Also, for the failing students I am asking them to correctly complete their course books in exchange for a passing grade. What do you think about that?

I am not the expert here, but that is up to you. If you think that doing such will actually reflect the students' ability then go ahead. If it will not reflect their ablilty then ..... hmm up to you. If you feel there is merit in it.

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