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Nagoyaguy · Joined: 15 May 2003 Posts: 425 Location: Aichi, Japan

For some reason the "If you dont like it, go home" attitude really gripes my cookies.

For one thing, I AM HOME. Japan is my home now. I plan to live here and raise my family and pay taxes and all that. Having made that decision, I plan to make it the best possible environment for both me and my family. I don't really care what happens to me so much, I am more interested in the coming generation.

What about my son? He is part Japanese and part white. Will he be accepted or not as a Japanese. Did you read the part at the onsen where the owner actually said that one of Debito's daughters, the Japanese looking one, could enter, but the more caucasian looking one could not? What could possibly bring it closer to home than that?

Attitudes can be changed by exposure and pressure. I was told by an apartment company that I could not rent because the building owner didn't like gaijin. Never mind that i had the money for the place, have lived here for a number of years, am married with a child, have great credit, speaka tha language, and even had a rock solid cosigner for the lease (my father in law). None of that mattered. Just my skin. This isn't culture. This is stupidity.

Imagine what the news would say if, for example, a Japanese tour group went to London and saw a "No Japs" sign at a pub or restaurant. Th excrement would surely come into energetic contact with the oscillating device.

voodoochild · Joined: 04 Apr 2003 Posts: 80

Im actually going to open a pub in London and put a sign up saying NO JAPANESE and watch the sh#t hit the fan......that sould sort them out.

J-Pop · Joined: 07 Oct 2003 Posts: 215 Location: USA

J-Pop · Joined: 07 Oct 2003 Posts: 215 Location: USA

ruggedtoast · Joined: 04 May 2003 Posts: 81 Location: tokyo

Its annoying isnt it but what can you do? In my general experience Japanese people are generally nicer to foreigners than many places Ive been however the government refuses to enforce or create any equal rights legislation which allows the smallest of prejudices from those in power to go accepted or unchallenged.

Only when theres some change on a governmental level will things start to change - Japanese people, if they wanted to, could make life just about intolerable for foreigners - and quite legally, its a testament to the general affability of the Japanese temperament that they do not.

Japan isnt really very international either, most tourists, as Glenski mentioned , travel the world in tour buses with about 50 other Japanese people - Ive met a lot of well travelled Japanese people, I havent met many who learned much about the countries they went to.

kovac · Joined: 12 Apr 2003 Posts: 78

Here Here Dr J...The racism endured by westeren gaijin isnt a stich on what other minorities in Japan recieve...or for that matter racism endured in other countries past n present.

As I said racism is abhorent, and it does exist in many parts of the world...This is turning out to be a very interesting topic...from little acorns mighty oaks grow...but I dont think Japans "racism" would ever extend to "no gaijin" posters in supermarkets, etc

People are different the world over, hell even from street to street people are different...In my heart I dont think Japanese are inherintly racist...I dunno probably spouted too much already on this topic...but some very interesting thoughts

Nagoyaguy · Joined: 15 May 2003 Posts: 425 Location: Aichi, Japan

Kovac, IMHO it has always been a weak argument to compare degrees of wrong, thereby belittling the wrong done to the party that has it 'easier'. Sure, others have it worse, but that is irrelevant. Similarly, the racism in other countries is also irrelevant. Comparing them is just an excuse.

As for 'positive discrimination', how would you feel if;

1/ you are Jewish, and are told that, "all Jews are good with money. You too, right?"

2/ you are black, and are told that, "all blacks can dance really well."

3/ you are from Latin America, and hear that "you latinos are just so sunny and positive, how lucky."

Whaddayathink? To me, this kind of positive stereotyping is patronizing and ignorant. Plus, it builds up an impossibly high standard for members of groups who do not fit the mold.

As for Japanese being inherently racist, I don't know. Surveys show Japanese to be somewhat xenophobic. Also, there seems to be a combination of envy/superiority with "the West". The problem is that mechanisms to deal with discrimination from a legal or constitutional point of view do NOT exist here. Only member of the G7 to not have national laws on the issue. Thus, victims of discrimination have little recourse.

My supermarket analogy is not as unrealistic as you may think. In Hokkaido, the number of 'no foreigner' or 'no Russian' signs is increasing, and spreading to shops, sporting goods places, restaurants, etc. Kinda like the 'Broken Window Theory' in action.

kovac · Joined: 12 Apr 2003 Posts: 78

As a black hispanic jesuit I find your last posting offensive...

=)

I think youll find the last bastion of heated debate is offense....you BUMMER !

Anyway..plainly...what are we (you) moaning about ?

You seriously have day to day struggles with racism in Japan...ほとに　？

I doubt it....くつろぐ dude...くつろぐ

kovac · Joined: 12 Apr 2003 Posts: 78

Dagnammit this forum doesnt even support ISO JIS hiragana !!!!

ITS RACISM ! I TELL YOU RACISM !

(Im being ironic...but still doesnt support JIS encoding for hiragana)

Perhaps undermines all previous arguements...what if a japanese person wanted to post on this site in hiragana, katakana or kanji...rebuked immediately with # HTML encoded strings !?!?!

Like a form of racism akin to the no foreigners allowed signs Nagoya guy and Debito et all complain about.....

cafebleu · Joined: 10 Feb 2003 Posts: 404

Congratulations Kova - self-congratulations that should be. You`ve just managed to reduce the very real issues of racism and xenophobia in Japan to very trivial matters.

Looking at this thread, I don`t think anybody is justified in having a pop at those who have posted about matters that genuinely affect their lives here. Such as posters who are married to a Japanese partner and have children of mixed racial parentage. Such as foreigners who have the right to point out how offensive it is to see signs saying `No Foreigners` that are put up insolently in the knowledge that the law here will not do anything about such blatant discriminatioln.

Maybe Kovac has been living in his narrow little apartment too much during his time in Japan. By the way, how long have you been here? I`d like to bet that it has not been as long as those who point out aspects of Japanese society and culture that do affect you if you stay here for any length of time such as 4 years and over.

It seems to me you are trivialising real issues here and that`s a sign that you don`t really understand Japanese society and culture and the deep-seated (and ultimately pathetic) racism that is enshrined by law against Japanese of Korean descent, foreign partners of Japanese citizens and their mixed race children, to name only 3 of many examples I could name. Yes, these are real issues just as shop signs are real issues.

The only way that is going to make enough Japanese people think about their society`s entrenched racism and xenophobia is to subject Japanese tourists and residents in other countries to the same treatment. Wow - I can hear the screaming and protests of the Japanese even now. Unfortunately that is the only way many Japanese would start to think about how they treat outsiders as inferior.

This all adds up to an interesting psychological problem, too. The resistance of any number of Japanese people to many truths about foreign countries and societies, and the need of any number of Japanese people to put down or regard with suspicion (which often masks hostility) those other countries and cultures, manifests a real insecurity. They even do this to Japanese kids who have been through the educational systems of other countries (I have know a few such Japanese boys who complained to me about bullying because they had lived in the USA and were kicked and punched and called `Yankee`).

This is not a minor peculiarity confined to a few racists. It`s a pervasive attitude and if you actually speak to or can understand Japanese people, Kovac, you will note an increasing number of instances of racist comments about foreign criminals, and how foreigners are responsible for the bad things in Japan. Throughout history, minorities or others deemed to be outsiders or different and thus threatening, have at first been subjected to such words which then have turned into violence. Unchecked racist talk nearly always leads to racist behaviour.

Just because we are in Japan should we accept this kind of racist talk and `know our place`? My partner is Chinese and he is understandably getting fed up with the increasing number of racial slurs he is hearing about people of his nationality.

Maybe Kovac needs to broaden his horizons and get to know the Asian communities in Japan and learn about their very real struggles with racial stereotyping and Japanese violence against them in some cases. Sure, some Chinese criminals have committed crimes in Japan but the overwhelming majority of homicides, robberies, gang related crimes etc are performed by Japanese citizens and of course the biggest criminals of the lot - the Yakuza. Buddies of notable politicans.

Sure, white foreigners have it good here to a considerable extent. I love my job, my students, and I enjoy living here for the different cultural experience. I think the Japanese people overall are decent people. Yet the socio-political mindset is lagging so far behind regarding other races and cultures. Sure other countries have racism but mostly that racism is explicity outlawed in the countries` legal codes. In the USA, the UK, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada to give a few notable examples, Japanese people who reside there have far greater human rights than we do in Japan.

As I said, the only solution seems to treat the Japanese the way they like to treat the non Japanese. Make it very difficult for them to get permanent residency and citizenship, and put signs up in shops and resorts telling them that they are not welcome. Then see the change happening in Japan. The Japanese won`t change because of any ethical point of view - any changes in discriminatory laws and practices will come about because they will have been given a taste of their own bitter medicine. They need drastic measures to combat drastic assumptions about their right to discriminate. Hear them squeal if other countries ever do unto them what they do unto foreigners.

kovac · Joined: 12 Apr 2003 Posts: 78

A very well constructed reply...yes I may have trivialised racist attitudes in Japan...its my nature...Humour, disdain ,ridicule, etc always difuses unsermountable situations....perhaps because the majority of posters havent had severe life affecting issues of racism enforced upon them...as I said before, I dont advocate it...

Hell Ive had my share of hearing people talk about me on the train lines,etc just last week when trying to get a refund on something ; the guy was openly rude n racist (ie "Charamporan", "Gaijin", etc) and Im sure many more will instances will come...not like Im adopting a "know my place" attitude...its just Japan is different...Integration and assimilation takes time...perhaps centuries.....it frightens me sometimes the globalisation that is happening across the world, and the expectancy that we should all act, behave and think the same...every culture has inconsistancies...it makes the world a very frightening yet joyous place to live....

The last comment seems almost "vengeful"...."give em a tase of thier own medicine"....One thing Ive always found is 2 wrongs most certainly dont make a right....does any one country in the world not have its guilty secrets present, past and future ? Should we administer a "punishment" for those wrongs ?

I didnt speak out to admonish past posters, merely to try to lighten a very topical debate (and hey the JIS thing is an issue !) Some people have experienced the effects of racism in Japan...ironically when I try to discuss with Japanese friends..they do seem very embaressed...Does your own home country not have its sins to bear....?

Im Scottish...My own clan masacered its fellow brothers, My nation (UK) invented the "concentration camp" and instigated "genocide" during the Boer war and initial colonisation of Australia....etc....let him without sin cast the first stone...Do you love everybody ? Are you a harmonious being without any hatred for anything ? Never.We are all human and its our nature to make wrongs and rights....but we all have responsibilty to make the world a better place...but naturally it takes time...perhaps some issues will never be resolved...

Pointless conjecture on websites will never change anything, especially amongst a consel that is one sided.....Ive lived in Japan longer than many would think...again a discrimination Ive met meeting many ex pats who seem to think they can lord over others who havent been here as long as themselves ...no doubt this will recieve yet another "dressing down" type reply...its the internet...people get to voice things they normally wouldnt say...

Comparission between other racism in other countries is perhaps invalid and my lightening of the subject...but at the end of the day ascii (or JIS) characters dont change the world...endless conjecture and debate yields nothing but more debate...If things affect you, affect your community...Its the only valid means of change...Anyways enough preamble...its futile....I will carry on as I have been, enjoying and hating the highs and lows of living in a foreign society.

みな　うれしい　に　ありましょ

(Hiragana...still no JIS)

There will be ups there will be downs....its life..and thats what makes it so good

cafebleu · Joined: 10 Feb 2003 Posts: 404

Hi Kovac,

Thanks for your reasonable reply to my post. I see your logic.

I`d like to explain my `Give em a taste of their own medicine` comments. I really would not like to see what I advocated - signs in foreign countries telling Japanese they are not welcome, restrictions making it very difficult for Japanese people to get residency rights or citizenship in other countries.

However, in theory I feel this would be the only way to wake up the Japanese who happily accept without discussion or debate racism and xenophobia. I am not saying western countries have no racism or xenophobia - I am saying that our laws can work for those who are discriminated against and they are genuine in intent. It is also usually not acceptable these days in western countries for racists to air their views and perpetuate discrimination with no reaction from anybody.

In Japan the Japanese do not want to know about such matters even if they are decent people. I understand that free discussion and debate is not part of their traditional culture but it is now 2003 - not the era of Tokugawa Ieyasu. There is also the problem of otherwise good Japanese people laughing about discrimination or thinking it is quite the natural thing to do. In Fukuoka a teacher got away for a prolonged period of time with abusing verbally and physically a kid whose crime was to have an American grandfather. In western countries that guy would not have been able to get away with it for so long.

I used to teach some really nice ladies who thought there was no problem with the sign at the onsen in Hokkaido saying that no foreigners were allowed. They also thought there was no problem with other signs saying no foreigners were allowed. I then said `So it`s okay then if in the USA and the UK, places have signs saying `No Japanese`?` They were highly indignant. I have noticed that otherwise decent Japanese fall short of human attitudes that I would expect of them. Until they experience some kind of discrimination themselves - bars to entering premises, bars to residing in other countries - the general feeling among the Japanese population will never change.

My partner is Chinese and he has lived in a number of western countries as well as in Asia. His opinion is that Japan is the most racist country he has lived in because according to him the Japanese (not all he says, but speaking of generally accepted social attitudes) have a very smug attitude towards discrimination - they do it naturally but are super sensitive to the idea of any other culture giving them the same treatment. We both have Japanese friends but they are our friends precisely because they don`t think in that way.

ScottishMike · Joined: 21 Sep 2003 Posts: 45

In terms of the racism, I find it astonishing that a person can move from Japan to another country, have children there, who are then viewed as being nationals, but after "Korean"s have lived in Japan for 3-5 generations, they are still "outsiders".

These children (and adults), have often never set foot in Korea, speak only Japanese, and to all purposes look the same.

(It is not my intent to offend anyone with this statement) To put it into perspective, I have a student that is of Korean descendent, as far as I`m concerned she`s Japanese. Another student upon meeting her for the first time, then later finding out her name said...

"I`m so surprised, you seemed so Japanese"

Confused

The biggest issue I think that WILL change the perception is the fact that the Japanese population is in aging decline.

SHould it continue there will be no Japanese left by 3000.

(OK, so thats not exactly likely but still)

In 50 years, I think people will be more widely accepted, even if its through "necessity".

I do love the wonderful (and yes arrogant Japanese statement)

"But British people are not pedigree, not just one type of person".

Thankfully, no, we aren`t.

Thats what makes us British ne??

I love to say that I can trace my family surname back in my local area for over 1000 years, but know that my ancestory also comes from over 5 other countries.

That usually messes with their minds.

OOps, I said "their"

but we are all people, aren`t we.

I`ve lost my thread, so I`ll shut up now.. Confused

Kapt. Krunch · Joined: 01 Apr 2003 Posts: 163

At least they're confident and arrogant enough to let you know how they feel. The Chinese are different still. They may not like me (black male) but they are forced to feel a kinship with anyone whom they percieve to have had hardship(all while feeling so much more enlightened). This is mainly due to the Japanese history of screwing China(haha). I really want to come to Japan. I'd like not to cause an international incident though. And I think that being denied entrance to an establishment might just do it.

The total lack of logic and fairness seems to be an Asian domain. Life is not fair...or else the average asian would all be taller,stronger, longer etc...
In light of the fairly evident generalizations, it seems of little surprise that entire races have taken this "we are inherently superior" attitude. Without it, they would be inferior...hmmmm.
Yours Truly,
DarkMan