Job Discussion Forums

[Sweetsee]

How important is it and how would you rate Japanese efl students in relationship to their international counterparts in regards to critical thinking capacity?
Thanks in advance.
Enjoy,
s

[injapantoday]

how important is it for people who post here to be able to think?

[gaijinalways]

Take a look at the teaching religion and philosophy thread in the general forum as to my opinion on its importance as a skill to be taught.

As to their ability, generally this type of skill isn't formally taught in schools in Japan, so many students here have not developed much ability to use it. That's why many of my students fear the 'why' question as in Japanese culture self reflection about the reasons for doing something are not so common. Hence, that's why it is frustrating to deal with some aspects here where people don't think why they do things the way they do them (though to be honest, sometimes I fall into that category as well).

[SeasonedVet]

The teaching of critical thinking skills depends largely on the school and the teacher and the lesson.
I have been in on lessons where critical thinking was encouraged. But that was for a select group doing Business Studies and English.
Other than that don't be fooled that those youngsters at High school can't think critically. They can despite it not being taught formally. But because of the culture in Japan many will not show their mettle in the classroom and indeed it is sometimes ( if not usually) not necessary to use or display that you can think crtically with the lecture style classes that seem to be the norm? ( is this still so?) ( depends on the teacher too)
Group leaders have to think critically.
There are lots of groups and leaders in Japan.
Although some others in the groups might be capable of such critical thinking they will usually Not show it because the group leader is to be respected as the one in charge making the decisions.

OP if you want to compare Japanese to their international counterparts as you said with regards to critical thinking (capacity) the capacity is there but maybe it is not encouraged so much here as Group decisions are the norm. You go along with the group decision OR you go along with the group Leader's decision. Thereby obviating the need for any critical thinking.

[womblingfree]

[J.]

I enjoyed reading this extract, seems to frame the situation nicely. Is your paper available anywhere so we could read the rest? :)

[SeasonedVet]

Hello Womblingfree,
That is an interesting post.
How do you connect it to the OP's topic.
I'm not being facetious. I found it quite interesting. maybe there is more that directly connects to the topic or maybe you can just say a little more to bring home the connection.

[womblingfree]

[womblingfree]

[gaijinalways]

Wombling,

I see more your paper talking about the anxiety caused by language learning. I don't see the section you quoted as dismissing what has been earlier claimed, that most Japanese students have poor critical thinking skills, especially in the areas of Western style debate. The whole of discussion is built on different cultural lines.
I am sure if we were tested on communicating according to Japanese cultural standards, some of even the most fluent non-native speakers of Japanese might fail to follow these standards. They have to be learned or at least subconsciously accurately copied.

[Chris21]

Just to play devil's advocate, even though most L2 speakers experience anxiety, this doesn't mean that they experience the same degree of anxiety. Sociocultural influences can play a large role in intensifying anxiety. I'd say Japan's tradition of teacher-fronted lessons, a rigid exam system, and hiearchical group structures (i.e. kohai - sempai) probably does result in a relatively high level of shyness and reticence when talking with foreigners.

From what I've heard from teachers who have taught in latin America, students there are much more outgoing and expressive. Even within Asia, I've noticed that Chinese, Korean, and Indian students usually seem more willing to speak in their L2.

Getting back to the original point of this thread, Japanese students probably are unique in some respects. As much as I hate to say it, critical thinking skills are probably not as valued in Japan as in Western countries (at least within school curriculums), and students here are understandably less inclined to think critically.

[womblingfree]

[Chris21]

Presumably in a lesson, Japanese students would be debating other Japanese students, right? I'm trying to imagine a scenario where Japanese students would debate English speakers, but this seems unlikely. So if non-native speakers are debating non-native speakers, wouldn't this be considered the "ideal speech situation" that you mentioned? All speakers would have the same chances, expectations, and priveleges - no one-sided language advantages.

So if multilingual people excel at critical thinking, and they are situated in an "ideal speech situation", shouldn't EFL students in Japan be displaying greater critical thinking skills?

[SeasonedVet]

What I am understanding from Womblingfree's excerpt is that reticence among Asians/Japanese is often confused with or thought to be " a lack of critical thinking skills". And it really isn't.

That excerpt is important to this whole discussion we are having but it does not go further to discuss the topic of whether Japanese students do or do not possess or lack crtical thinking skills when compared to their western counterparts.

In order to find that out ( failing a conducting a study to see if they use critical thinking skills or not) we can use our powers of observation in the interim ( unless anyone knows of a study that has already been done) and collect or own data whether written or not.
I am all for empirical evidence. It is the teachers who go at it day afer day that begin to realize patterns and notice exceptions and anomalies etc. (edited by me. incorrect spelling of anomalies now corrected)

I think we all agree that critical thinking skills as we know them in the west don't seem to be 'formally taught" here in Japan to any significant degree. Although ,as I mentioned before, I have actually seen it included in a special Business lesson at one school.
In my teaching also I sometimes throw in a little problem to be solved. What I have noticed is that they DO possess the critical thinking skills.
What I do find interesting is that the way I would have solved or concluded is not the way they solve or conclude and I think it is as a result of cultural influences.

Over in the "care less" thread started by sweetsee I made mention of a team teaching lesson done by myself and the JTE where the students had to create a telephone conversation where the boyfriend is calling his girlfriend but the father doesn't like the boy. The boy wants to take her out. They were supposed to discuss that in groups and Not only create a conversation But also get around the problem.
The converstions were funny but good and it showed that they definitely know how to think. (At least on that topic. When it comes to moral dilemmas etc I am not sure)
In one group in the end the father told the boyfriend that the only way he can take his daughter to the movies is if he( the father) can come along too.
I asked one member of the group what she thought about that in her real life, she said although they as a group decided it she would Definitely Not want it for herself if it was her father and her boyfriend. I usally go further by asking them to explain. To see how or why they reach conclusions. She said because there wouldn't be anything to talk about and by extension boring and uncomfortable. This might be more of a cultural thing. In some western countries parents do go out with their kids and their boy/girlfriends and it's ok. In Japan it seems to be a no no generally.

Another group of adult students I aksed the question if she was out in public and something embarrassing happened to her ( I don't remember exactly what the embarrassing situation was ) and she said that as long as her friend was there they could just laugh away the embarrassment.
Not how I would have dealt with it.
Another group of adults had to solve the problem of getting a person out of prison and to a rendezvous by choosing the correct equipment, tools etc out of a variety to get that person around over under obstacles etc etc.
They did it very well. How well varied from person to person but in all these situations it wasn't like there were people or students who had no clue of how to think critically and resolve.
So what I think is that although critical thinking skills are not taught "formally" to any significant degree Japanese people are quite capable of doing so but they way they might go about it and reach conclusions might be different (sometimes) from their western counterparts and I think it is due in part to cultural differences.

[gaijinalways]

Maybe I have to chalk it up to my students not having enough life experiences to draw on. Some of them just can't seem to come up with reasonable conclusions based on the circumstances given. The only time I can remember doing something similar was when I had a bad case of hayfever and I mistakenly didn't want to miss work to see a doctor. The next day I had an interview from hell. One of the questions asked I think would have been okay under normal circumstances, but my head felt like a ten kilo block of concrete after 10 shots of tequila, and not the good stuff.

But to get back to something I asked earlier, why can't Japanese students answer the 'why' question? Often I get the 'no reason' answer, where I quip," This isn't a Coke commercial! ".