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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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 Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Originally, rusmeister couldn't explain what he meant by "philosophy." Then he blames others for not being able to read his stream-of-consciousness mind, contending that he needs a whole book to explain his ideas.
No wonder he doesn't like multiculturalism. It requires one to think and to clearly communicate one's ideas to others. |
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guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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general effect of the philosophical topsy-turvy is that 150 years ago, people with few to no resources moved mountains to get themselves (or their children) a real education - Frederick Douglass, Laura Ingalls, Abraham Lincoln, Helen Keller.... to name a few examples. In America today, we have nearly every child in a school funded by million-dollar annual budgets and yet the children, (this is more noticeable in high schools) often fight the chance to learn from willing teachers and take pride in their ignorance, and parents who often have little or no idea what their kids are doing in school. ESL in public schools in the US is a little better off - immigrant parents bring a drive with them to succeed and first-year ESL students are usually very well-behaved and often make a lot of progress. But by their second year they have had time to observe how the other, mainstream kids behave and many begin to emulate their behavior.
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These amazing people you mention achieved their feats at a time when only 8 to 10 percent of people attended school beyond 8th grade. They were outstanding individuals who made the most of their opportunities. Those types of people still exist today and in even greater numbers, only now because of multiculturalism and pluralism they don't have to face such extreme hurdles. However instead of educating only the rich and gifted at higher levels of education we teach everyone. It is not an easy task. Though societies are built on the backs of the masses and majors movements are swept forward by the masses students have long been taught to believe that it is all the work of a few great white men. History is the endless conflict of divergent peoples and forces. Deny them their place in history and you deny present people their identity in our present societies. If you think that the present failings of our societies are the result of pluralism and multiculturalism, then take a moment to consider what the world would be like right now if 90% of the people were given the training they need in science and technology they recieve now, but were also taught they have no place or voice in our in our societies. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| you are already so set against understanding what I have to say, I'll just ask you to read a better writer than me. |
So, you admit that you cannot answer questions from people who disagree with your assumptions. Not a good philosophy for a discussion forum, especially on a thread that you yourself started.
No thank you about reading what Chesterton or others have written. If you cannot explain yourself clearly enough, you really shouldn't even be here. THAT is an absolute.
Oh, as for absolutes, how can you continue to say you don't believe in them when you pass off statements like THIS one:
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| I'll say in short that progress absolutely requires absolutes. |
About my Internet quotes, you'll pardon me but those were not from just one site. I'm also not an expert on Russia, but you don't seem to offer any data, so I figured someone should. Your anecdote doesn't cut it, either. Give some overall figures, ok? Things I have read show that one third to half of students in Russia never even FINISH high school, so what does that have to say about the quality of their education? Please give some figures that show unbiased measurement/comparison with other countries, ok? I gave you stuff from a brief Internet search. A "Russian expert living in Russia", such as yourself, should be able to provide much more current and thorough information. Until you do, your statements are pretty worthless.
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| I think I would have to write a book to explain what I'm trying to say because there are so many things you need explained. I don't have the energy for that. |
May I suggest, then, that you write that book. You clearly don't have the capacity for discussion here, and many of us don't have the energy for your posts. Page 5. Congratulations. Is there a Moderator looking in on the "progress" of this thread? |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 11:56 pm Post subject: Yes |
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Yes, there is.
My suggestion is there be less argument and more discussion. Otherwise, this thread may be nearing its end very quickly. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:41 am Post subject: |
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Thanks.
What was it we were discussing, anyway? I believe the OP was trying to establish that we must all believe in the same things he does before he'll make a point.
That's the way I see it, anyway. I'm happy to discuss, but if I have to agree with someone, there's no point in typing.
So, rusmeister, what point about education do you want to discuss? |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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rusmeister posted
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| I know what I'm talking about, and a central point is the idea that you somehow keep your philosophy out of your teaching is false. The idea that public education somehow imparts no philosophy is false. |
Glenski, I think this is what he was getting at, which is related to the thread. I would somewhat agree with him, at least in part that some of our values will be exposed to students, whether consciously or not.
One half of what we were discussing in this thread was if teaching language skills is the main goal, how much time, if any, should teachers spend on teaching other skills? I would say it depends on the course. I teach Western style debate classes, so of course my students have to learn debate. Some teachers also teach this in English Literature classes. My guess would be that they think debating skills will contribute to improving discussion skills, which further increases language comprehension skills. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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One more thing:
When he originally used the word philosophy, rusmeister really meant "political and social ideology." There's a big difference. I still think he should rename the thread accordingly, especially if the context is "education." |
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rusmeister
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 867
Location: Russia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
rusmeister posted
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| I know what I'm talking about, and a central point is the idea that you somehow keep your philosophy out of your teaching is false. The idea that public education somehow imparts no philosophy is false. |
Glenski, I think this is what he was getting at, which is related to the thread. I would somewhat agree with him, at least in part that some of our values will be exposed to students, whether consciously or not.
One half of what we were discussing in this thread was if teaching language skills is the main goal, how much time, if any, should teachers spend on teaching other skills? I would say it depends on the course. I teach Western style debate classes, so of course my students have to learn debate. Some teachers also teach this in English Literature classes. My guess would be that they think debating skills will contribute to improving discussion skills, which further increases language comprehension skills. |
Yes, that is part of it - the part I think of as practical application of our philosophy. I appreciate that someone can see that much and I apologize for not hitting that nail on the head - it IS a terribly complex subject, and of some technical interest to us as ESL teachers.
The other part, which Henry seems to object to, is about examining your philosophy, and even exploring the possibility that one's own education (most especially public, which purports to not do this) and training was inundated with a philosophy that affects them - and everything they do, usually without even being aware of it.
Most radical Christians, Muslims, etc, are aware of the philosophy they have been indoctrinated in. Most public school grads, and certified teachers are not. This is what affects how we behave and teach in the classroom, so it has relevance.
I won't insist on being right all the time, Henry - I'm not so proud. I make gaffes from time to time, like anybody. But in my areas of specialty I will insist that I know some things - like the recent posting on info on Russia demonstrated. What I find interesting is how virulently some posters come up against what I'm saying, as if it were hitting them in a sensitive place.
To a certain extent, you have a point about philosophy. It was indeed political and social ideology that was a centerpiece of CA's public teacher training program. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| rusmeister wrote: |
| The other part, which Henry seems to object to, is about examining your philosophy, and even exploring the possibility that one's own education (most especially public, which purports to not do this) and training was inundated with a philosophy that affects them.... |
Except that this is NOT "philosophy." It's ideology and religion. If you don't understand the difference, that's a shame. You should take a course on "Philosophy of Education" for starters. |
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Jizzo T. Clown
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 668
Location: performing in a classroom near you!
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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philosophy:
1 a (1) : all learning exclusive of technical precepts and practical arts (2) : the sciences and liberal arts exclusive of medicine, law, and theology <a doctor of philosophy> (3) : the 4-year college course of a major seminary b : a discipline comprising as its core logic, aesthetics, ethics, metaphysics, and epistemology
2 a : pursuit of wisdom b : a search for a general understanding of values and reality by chiefly speculative rather than observational means c : an analysis of the grounds of and concepts expressing fundamental beliefs
3 a : a system of philosophical concepts b : a theory underlying or regarding a sphere of activity or thought
I believe the underlined definition is the focus of this thread. But then, it could be:
4 a : the most basic beliefs, concepts, and attitudes of an individual or group
as in, the attitudes we have towards teaching, particularly with regards to other cultures. Since immersing ourselves in another culture goes with the job, we should always be careful not to use that as an opportunity to "indoctrinate" our students with our moral, ideological, or religious beliefs. Not only would it be ethically wrong, but bad for business as well.
Sure, we should help those in foreign lands learn what they'd like about our own cultures, but again, this must be handled objectively. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Sure, we should help those in foreign lands learn what they'd like about our own cultures, but again, this must be handled objectively. |
Good point I can agree on. What I hope Rusmeister is getting at is a critical analysis of that objectivity - hard to acquire as it is, and I'd say impossible to acquire if you are unwilling to look at your own education, worldview, and philosophies - professional or personal. |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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gaijinalways wrote:
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| Glenski, I think this is what he was getting at, which is related to the thread. I would somewhat agree with him, at least in part that some of our values will be exposed to students, whether consciously or not. |
Fine, no problem. Too general to respond any further unless rus comes up with a specific.
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| One half of what we were discussing in this thread was if teaching language skills is the main goal, how much time, if any, should teachers spend on teaching other skills? I would say it depends on the course. |
Again, fine, I agree, too. But this seems to be such an overly general (and obvious) point, that it's over before it gets off the ground. Can you be more specific, rus, or is this just going to be a "yes man" thread? (no sarcasm intended) I've just read your follow-up post to gaijinalways, and there is no additional specific note mentioned. What do you want to say, rus?
Does every teacher (person) have his/her own ideology and philosophy about life? Yes.
Does every teacher consciously think of it when he/she teaches? Probably not.
Should he/she? Depends. Hey, now there's a non-specific! Is this what you want to discuss? Be prepared for a lot of "maybes" and "depends on the country" and "depends on what the philosophy is". I just had a minor discussion about this on another forum, and it ended in a deadlock. |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| Oh, and Guy, I did indeed have thoughts about the thread you referred to. Some are not appropriate to this OP, though. It is worthy of attention. I'll see if I can get back to it later. |
I anxiously await your thoughts on it...I believe most of that thread is indeed appropriate to the OP, if we are still talking about pluralism. I'm much more concerned with a practical application, particularly in teaching EFL abroad - a field in which I'll never be one to say simply, 'just teach'. |
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gaijinalways
Joined: 29 Nov 2005
Posts: 2279
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:36 am Post subject: |
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Thought we could use a few more definitions;
Definitions of IDEOLOGY on the Web:
the unifying system of beliefs, attitudes, and values expressed in the superstructure of a culture. The body of thought and ideas that guides a society and perpetuates the status quo of the bourgeoisie.
Definitions of theology on the Web:
the rational and systematic study of religion and its influences and of the nature of religious truth
a particular system or school of religious beliefs and teachings; "Jewish theology"; "Roman Catholic theology"
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...3 a : a system of philosophical concepts b : a theory underlying or regarding a sphere of activity or thought
I believe the underlined definition is the focus of this thread. But then, it could be:
4 a : the most basic beliefs, concepts, and attitudes of an individual or group... |
Now look at some defintions of religion;
Definitions of religion on the Web:
a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny
Religion�sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system�is commonly defined as belief concerning the supernatural, sacred, or divine, and the moral codes, practices and institutions associated with such belief. In its broadest sense some have defined it as the sum total of answers given to explain humankind's relationship with the universe. In the course of the development of religion, it has taken a huge number of forms in various cultures and individuals. ...
a set of attitudes, beliefs, and practices pertaining to supernatural power.
I think this is perhaps what rusmeister was pointing to, that there is some overlap in meaning and people's relgious beliefs and ideology are in fact part of their philosophy. Think about it, most of us have grown up under Christian theology and capitalist/democratic ideology. It would be difficult for some parts of either to not be part of our philosophies. |
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Henry_Cowell
Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 3352
Location: Berkeley
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| gaijinalways wrote: |
| I think this is perhaps what rusmeister was pointing to, that there is some overlap in meaning and people's relgious beliefs and ideology are in fact part of their philosophy. |
Yes, that's exactly what he originally meant. Thanks for thinking it out for him!  |
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