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Malsol
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 1976
Location: Lanzhou
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 Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:05 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by Malsol on Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Malsol
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 1976
Location: Lanzhou
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:09 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by Malsol on Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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yamahuh
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 1033
Location: Karaoke Hell
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:14 am Post subject: |
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Wouldn't that be nice?
I know I should ignore him but arrogance such as his i.e for the sole purpose of making himself feel superior by attempting to make others feel inferior just really gets my goat.
I'll try to play nice from now on though.
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yamahuh
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 1033
Location: Karaoke Hell
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| Malsol wrote: |
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| If you're such an accomplished English teacher why aren't you still doing it? |
Mainly because I am not a white monkey willing to work for peanuts doing something unproductive. |
You're so predictable it's almost humorous, at least it would be if it weren't so pathetically boring.
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yamahuh
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 1033
Location: Karaoke Hell
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| Malsol wrote: |
Sheeba is that how you deal with your own failures, just run away? |
From my understanding Sheeba is still teaching English i.e has not run away from anything, whereas you sir are no longer an English teacher, so who exactly is the failure who ran away?
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Malsol
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 1976
Location: Lanzhou
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:46 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by Malsol on Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Steppenwolf
Joined: 30 Jul 2006
Posts: 1769
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| Malsol wrote: |
Pair and group work is fine so long as you are within earshot.
As soon as the students think you can't hear them, they revert to speaking Chinese.
Wake up! |
THis is onbviously the way that DOESN'T WORK! Not only because students will inevitably revert to Chinese among themselves as soon as you have turned your back on them - it is wrong because they haven't developed what S. KRashen calls a "monitor", i.e. a FEEL for the language that helps them navigate the various structures competently.
As long as they cannot think in the target language they cannot produce any useful or meaningful language and will instead merely reinforce their mistranslations.
You were totally right in your first post - they memorise English merely as an academic subject for the exam; but even what is in fact offered as informal venues where they can practise English (the English-language media - what would the CHINA DAILY be without its legions of Chinese wannabee English "interpreters"? - or those silly English saloons and English corners) is not used wisely. So long as students are not taught English in English they can't internalise it. And if you don't ask them to study materials in English they won't get the kind of exposure to the language that would help develop their feel for it - literature.
The objective of learning English ought to be for the learner to become completely weaned off his mother tongue for comprehension! They should learn to use English independent of its CHinese translation! But does that happen? |
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fat_chris
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 3198
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:12 am Post subject: SLA talk |
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So where's all the talk about SLA?
Krashen, i + 1, comprehensible input?
Interaction? Input/Output? Prior knowledge? Engaging activities? Motivation? Cummins?
I'm waiting... |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| Not only because students will inevitably revert to Chinese among themselves as soon as you have turned your back on them - it is wrong because they haven't developed what S. KRashen calls a "monitor", i.e. a FEEL for the language that helps them navigate the various structures competently |
well I suppose you're talking for all the students in China - do none of them have the proverbial monitor - and even if they have it - how does it make that English more interesting that an illicit discussion on little Zhang's lattest computer game!!!! Even the best Chinese English students will invariably rather talk to each other - when out of earshot of the teach (and so often within) - in their L1. Motivation is the key - exercises where the result is about motivating the student carry out a class presentation (or in those huge classes - at least knowing there is a chance of being picked to make them) - where preparing that presentation should be a matter of teamwork - where if they don't talk English in preparing the work, they at least do the second best thing - discuss talking English. To motivate 'em to do this then the exercise has to be fun - lots of good suggestions in the getting students to speak threads. But most importantly - you have to be fun - a role model - where role is focused on speaking English - then maybe the odd student will be inclined use that extra effort to go that extra linguistic mile to try and be able to talk to the teacher in English (or extreme cases - wanting to talk like the teacher). But of course the majority - just like the majority of students in any language class anywhere in the world - are more interested in the regular kind of stuff students are in to - after all they are human - just like the rest of us!!!
By the way � I believe most youngsters in other non-English speaking countries � at least those kids who have open access to internet and are in societies where many types of English language media\arts (pop music/film) are fashionable and have more or less become a part of every day culture � learn much of their English outside the classroom, and are motivated to learn English by the fashion value it has in their culture. This is the human way of learning a language - so be human - give English a value 
Last edited by vikdk on Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Malsol
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 1976
Location: Lanzhou
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:59 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by Malsol on Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| Malsol � we�re talking about teaching an L2 - as in teaching a student to be bilingual. Why moan about their L1 abilities - and worry about so-called Chinese mental lexicons? Worry more about getting your students to want to learn English - because without that want you're backing a looser |
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Malsol
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 1976
Location: Lanzhou
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:37 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by Malsol on Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Gregor
Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 842
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:03 am Post subject: |
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I expect to get flamed for this little input,
But how far do we have to take our own responsibility for our students' learning?
I mean, our first priority is to ourselves, right? In other words, we have jobs that pay salaries. Most of us are not independently wealthy and teaching solely from the goodness in our hearts, right? So we're here to support ourselves.
OK. Number 2, then, would be to educate. And that's a very close second, if we're serious about wanting to teach.
But let's also face the facts that "teaching" means "helping students to learn," NOT "forcing knowlege and understanding on someone against his will." I can do my best to show people (i.e. my students as well as my CT colleagues) what they can do to improve their English. If they abjectly refuse to do so, but still allow me to remain at my post and pay me my salary, then though I care, I don't make it my own personal crusade. I'm just happy that I have many students who DO listen to me and take the advice I offer, and improve accordingly.
After all, more than a few of these students really DON'T care about improving their English. They only want to pass their arbitrary tests, and if they can do so with the memorize-regurgitate-forget method, then why is that a problem? If THEY don't care, why should I? I just focus on the students who DO want to learn English, and who respect my opinion as an experienced teacher. |
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vikdk
Joined: 25 Jun 2003
Posts: 1676
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Would you like to discuss intrinsic or extrinsic motivation, or both?
My comments, with whch you take exception, go to the issue of teaching the L2 in the target language. |
Malsol - please feel free to discuss any type of motivationary factors you want - then we might be able to get more than your usual 1 sentence posts!
By the way Malsol - think of motivation, in the sense of getting the student to feel they need learn to (something we can influence by foul or fair means) - and indeed regard it as that small issue that lies at heart of any teaching strategy. There you are, a pointer to get you on your way. |
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saint57
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 1221
Location: Beyond the Dune Sea
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:16 am Post subject: |
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I opened this thread titled, "ENGLISH LEARNING VS. ACQUISITION". I never expected a bunch of nerds to be flaming each other.
Wait a second! That's exactly what I expected and that's why I enjoy reading it. Proceed! |
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