Job Discussion Forums

[Amenti]

Dearest MA Student,
What rock did you crawl out from under? How did you ever function in Britain? Did you leave England because Margaret was your leader or maybe the Queen? If so you picked the wrong place to come, but there are many places here in the Kingdom were you would fit right in, the Muttawwa are always recruiting!

[Cleopatra]

[Amenti]

Calling All Women Avoid All Public Places in Riyadh you might be accosted by large gangs of H***y Young Men. Oh please, should women avoid the supermarkets and malls too?

[Mr Gohlam]

[Cleopatra]

[tuberculosis]

[Mr Gohlam]

[Queen of Sheba]

[Queen of Sheba]

Edited for double posting.

[Cleopatra]

[laila]

[I won't be subjecting my wife to awkward stares from male students and staff anytime soon.]

I must admit that I haven�t appreciated being put in this awkward position myself. It�s not that I mind meeting with the male teachers, but I do find walking through the men�s college while male students stare at us inappropriate.

[Calling All Women Avoid All Public Places in Riyadh....should women avoid the supermarkets and malls too?]

Supermarkets and malls are just that, public places. They are open to men and women. A men�s college is for men, not women. I would feel a little awkward walking through a men's college in the states.

[Queen of Sheba]

There are solutions to this problem Laila. Why not take this up with you administration? Or stop going? Or be accompanied by a male?

[007]

[MAstudent]

Cleo: �As far as I know from my considerable experience in KSA, it is not unacceptable for women to mix with men in a professional context, so long of course as the women are appropriately attired.�

Yes, it happens but nevertheless it�s not something the culture and the tradition of the county find acceptable. Shouldn�t we respect the culture and tradition of the land in which we are guests even if we don�t agree with it?! We expect that from people who come to our respective Western tolerant civilized countries, but find it difficult to implement when the shoe is on the other foot!!!

Cleo: �Huh? Are you seriously suggesting that women teachers are going to be accosted by male students in a college?????�

Are you telling me that it�s not possible? Have people on this forum not mentioned stories of things that occur in the Kingdom? Or are we na�ve to this fact.

Anyway, I�m getting off the point; the point is that of cultural sensitivity. Yes men do see women in the malls, a public place for both men and women to shop, etc. However this is not the same as in an educational situation. To my knowledge there are no mixed colleges or schools in the kingdom. Schools and colleges have separate sections for both men and women with very little interaction except at the senior level (I also have many years of Saudi experience under my belt).

Cleo: �I would imagine that the female staff are quite capable of assessing their own 'safety' without you looking out for them�

I hope your right because if anything untoward happens�..

Just to give you some western statistics:

�In the United States, 1.3 women are raped every minute. That results in 78 rapes each hour, 1872 rapes each day, 56160 rapes each month and 683,280 rapes each year.�

�1 out of every 3 American women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime.�
http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~ad361896/anne/cease/rapestatisticspage.html

�Every 45 seconds someone in the United States is sexually assaulted (1).�
�1 out of every 7 women currently in college has been raped (2), however, 9 out of 10 women raped on campus never tell anyone about the rape (3)�
http://www.crisisconnectioninc.org/sexualassault/statistics.htm

According to UK home office reports: �UK The Home Office revealed yesterday that 167 women are raped in England and Wales every day.� http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hors237.pdf

I�m sure all these women in these two western countries believed and felt that they were �quite capable of assessing their own 'safety' without� anyone �looking out for them�

Again I come back to cultural sensitivity?????????? Why is that so hard to comprehend!!!!! Why is it so hard for some people to accept, respect and abide by the cultural norms of the country in which they are guests!!!!! Is it that some people have come to KSA on some sort of neo-crusade; to civilize the heathens, to free them from the chains of oppression, to liberate them from the shackles of male domination! Perhaps if that�s the case, and if that�s why you�re in KSA, then why not have the courage to just say it!! Stop beating round the bush.

Cleo:
�As far as I know from my considerable experience in KSA, it is not unacceptable for women to mix with men in a professional context, so long of course as the women are appropriately attired.�

Is coming into a room full of male colleagues and removing your abayah, sitting amongst them, laughing and joking with them acceptable, especially when you can and have been seen by the male students!! Yes this has occurred on many occasions. Is this culturally sensitive!!!! Does this not indicate a total lack of respect and understanding on the part of some esl teachers!!

Sometimes people feel (and from experience have the right to feel) that teachers come to this country with an imperialistic colonial approach to teaching. �We are right and our why of life is best, so you guys need to change!� and they call it liberalism!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rather, as teachers is it not our place to help students to critically think, reason and gain access to other forms of discourse so that they can decide their own futures and the destiny of their country for themselves (self determination, isn�t that part of our way of life?!). In Iraq, we are forcing our way of life, social and political norms upon the Iraqi people by way of tanks and bombs, in KSA the tanks have been replaced by teachers, and bombs by the chorus of �World class education�!

Amenti: �What rock did you crawl out from under? How did you ever function in Britain?� and �Bryanlorin get your head out of the sand. I suppose for a Canadian farm hand this might seem normal�

Respectfully, Amenti you don�t seem to have the tools for debating with others. In the West we are taught to respect and tolerate other people�s opinions even if we don�t agree with them. Also we are taught how to have a civilized, honest and mature intellectual debate. You seem to have not learnt any of this, rather you have a foul way of writing and I don�t see the point of responding to anything you have to say!!!!!!

Coming back to the issue of female team leaders, then let me try and clarify again. I have no problem in female staff being team leaders at all in the general sense. What I oppose and believe is neither culturally sensitive nor conducive to the betterment of student education is for them to be leaders of the male section. At the same time I oppose male colleagues being the team leaders for the female section. The reason is that the men do not teach the female students and therefore do not know the needs of the female students. The female staff members are in a far better place to make decisions and know what the students need, and vice versa. I know there is a need for discussion, brainstorming and sharing of ideas (and I�m all for that), but that can be done by e-mail.

QoS: �Unless of course, they have an inside connection to the say, um, male faculty, who are equally against such "wrongs." After all, these are the things that make you go hmmmmm.....�

That�s a big accusation, do you have any proof. Is it not part of our western way to assume people are innocent until proven guilty!!! Have we been corrupted by the Saudi ways?!

Best to all!

[Cleopatra]