Job Discussion Forums

[Queen of Sheba]

I am not a fan of the American educational system; I never faced so much drama, racism, or sports as a way of life attitude before or since high school in the USA. My education came more from observing and being scrutinized by the prejudiced teachers, backwards administration and hours I ditched their idiotic classes reading Shakespeare and Blake in the library. Somehow I don�t think their intent was to educate me by playing the jerk and supporting the jocks, that would imply a "tough love" sort of intelligence, and we all know their is a lack of intelligence emanating from America. Those that are mildly intelligent, have traveled and read 3 books on Eastern religions, and eat mung beans, are ex-hippies that can't get a grip on the modern world so they fling themselves into jobs abroad based on their "diversity training" and piss off the rest of us. Belly dancing and natural fibers don't equate cultural awareness. Actually they may be still stoned from the 70s purple haze to see thru the smoke into the cultural realities that we face in the workplace.

Higher education in the US is another story, and a good college education can be attained, if you can afford to go to college, in the US, although I can't respect the average American�s education entirely unless they have a college degree and some study abroad, or work abroad experiences. Not that this can fix the societal propaganda they grow up with, but it may be a start to thinking outside of their box. Too often Americans live insular lives and thus have insular minds.

[007]

[veiledsentiments]

[veiledsentiments]

QoS... well the US is a great big country with a huge variance in the knowledge of its citizens and the standards of its HS systems. Since there is no central control of education in the country, there can be huge differences in style, management and the ability of their teachers.

One can spend all day making stereotypical generalizations about Americans (or Arabs or citizens of the sub-continent or the UK) and sometimes one is right and sometimes one is dead wrong...

Are many of us fat? Yup... and so are many Egyptians. Are many of us mentally ill? Unlikely many more than in the rest of the world...

What I have found is that the average untraveled American knows about as much about the world and different cultures as the average untraveled Gulf Arab knows about America. Both of them have learned what they know from movies and TV news propaganda...

Our comments about the "other" usually tell us more about ourselves than them...

VS

[Queen of Sheba]

[Cleopatra]

[veiledsentiments]

But how much of the knowledge of the 'average' Gulf Arab is due to the fact that they are in an area that has been colonized to one extent or another, has significant numbers of the populace are wealthy enough to have traveled, and their economy and future are strongly affected by outside counties.

None of those factors would affect the 'average' American. The US has never been colonized or invaded. There has been little or no use for learning a foreign language as there is little or no chance to use it. (outside of Spanish) For the average American - whatever that is - is not different from the average citizen of anywhere. They care about and learn about what interests them and what affects their daily life.

We, as educators, naturally look down our noses at the deficiencies of the American system of education (and I could write volumes on it and how bad I consider it and what I think should change). But, I have about as much chance of changing the American system as I did to change that of any Gulf country I worked in. We tend to be very quick to generalize and criticize, but I can also see how and why both parts of the world have ended up where they are in their education systems.

As an interesting sidenote to the liberals versus conservative situation in education and societal debate on this... I have been in a running email debate with a fellow American who claims that the reason that the US system is bad because those darned 'liberals' have taken over the system here. I pointed out that the best European systems seem to be in countries with a liberal political system. He wasn't convinced.

I am often amused by the parallel arguments in such different countries and cultures.

VS

[007]

[007]

[Cleopatra]

[Queen of Sheba]

The post I had up with a poll on this US education topic has been zapped by the mods, so before this gets zapped as well, let me just say that I do agree that much of the education in the Middle East has been from years of conquest, and the more recent colonizing by the French, British, and American �globalization,� if we cant call it colonization.

None the less, teachers are underpaid, SAT scores are on the decline, and America's colleges aren�t subsidized by the state, save for in California, thus have less enrollment and are very expensive. Furthermore, students aren�t required to learn a second language and general knowledge on foreign policy, geography and cultures and countries outside the US is next to nothing. The West and East coasts provide some exceptions to these rules, but given the size of the US, that�s a possible 1/16 of the population that may know what the average Arab or European knows about the latter, and this may be related to their own ancestral links. So, yes, there are educational and historic explanations that state why, arguably, Arabs and Europeans, to take things on a balanced level with America, have a better, wider, and more globally aware knowledge base. However, I remain firmly planted in the depressing fact that the US hasn�t exported much more than the franchised democracy and McDonald�s chains.

[veiledsentiments]

I wouldn't disagree and have used most of the criticisms, but the fact is that the average American can't identify Slovenia or Slovakia or Kuwait on a map because they are all totally irrelevant to their lives and they just plain don't care. They have absolutely no use for a foreign language as they would never have a reason to use it. And I'm not really sure why anyone in any other country should care about that one way or another. The average Gulf Arab can use English... or Urdu... and it is worth his or her time to learn it.

And I stand by my point that the US has never been colonized nor invaded beyond small border skirmishes in the early years of settling the borders. The North American continent was colonized by England, France, and Spain prior to the formation of the US, but there has never been any colonization since the US threw out the British and formed the country.

But I would definitely call the situation in the Gulf after WW1 by Europe and the US as colonization. Not in the same use of the word as when we think of India say. But 'globalization' is a modern word of the last 10-15 years and what I would consider the colonialization period was from the 1930s to 1970s. Note that I am always speaking of the Gulf in general, not Saudi in particular.

I hope the mods don't snatch this one, but it is on the subject of the Gulf too. I suspect that your new thread was considered too far off topic. Perhaps a thread devoted to bashing the US educational system is more appropriate in the North America section.

VS

[globalnomad2]

Hhhmmm...a lot of simplistic disparaging of Americans here. We are not all George Dubya. That's why the recent congressional elections were essentially a national vote against the Bush-man.

As for high schools, quality varies among the public ones, and certainly, the kids value conformity above all else. That disappears pretty much at the university level, however. I went to a regional state university (a "state college,") and found absolutely all kinds of students, and all were free to be themselves and we all found friends with similar interests--and friends with dissimilar interests.

As for the US university system as a whole, one need only look at the international rankings. The Times Higher Education Supplement and another one out of China puts 7 or 8 US universities in the top 10, with Oxford and Cambridge near the middle. As early as 1975 I remember seeing polls of worldwide CEOs and politicians ranking Harvard as the most prestigious (or best) university. Today, the latter has literally 10 times more financial resources than Oxford. This kind of endowment buys top professors, far, far better research facilities, etc. So Oxford is not "the world's most prestigous university," as one poster here claims. It used to be, but those days are long gone.

A couple of years ago two British higher-education specialists, one an Oxford don and the other from the University of London (sorry, I didn't save their names) proposed that Britain start emulating the US university system. The Oxford don said the U.S. system "combines elite excellence with mass access to higher education." I do remember that quote. He meant that while there are Harvard, MIT, and 130 other world-class institutions that are difficult to get into, there are also less selective colleges that nevertheless can offer an outstanding education if the student takes advantage of it.

While we're on the subject of stupid Americans and their inferior education system (I agree, the public high schools don't measure up), this year the Nobel prizes in chemistry, physics, medicine and economics all went to Americans. In previous years, as you may recall, Nobels in those fields have been awarded to U.S.-based scholars disproportionately more than the rest of the world.. Some recipients have been American, and some have been foreign immigrants, but the point is, it is the U.S. university system that has enabled people to excel to the level of Nobel prizes.

In all, if I am supposed to believe I am dimwitted and inferior to others because I'm American--and that's precisely what some of you are syaing...well...I'm not very impressed with such logic.

[globalnomad2]

And by the way, what is Queen of Sheba talking about when s/he claims only California subsidizes the state universities? That is absurdly inaccurate. All 50 states subsidize their state universities and colleges to varying degrees. In some, like Texas, Florida, Missouri, Louisiana and others, tuition rates are similar to or cheaper than in California.

And...the U.S. doesn't export much more than McDonalds?? Uhm...so high-end technology such as passenger jets and computers don't count? Did you know General Electric powers Tokyo with its generators?

In the late 1980s everybody said the US was finished, it's all over; Japan will take over the world, etc....but the US is a work-based society, like Japan and Hong Kong and China and Korea. People value work, and the university system is outstanding. You cannot say this about the Middle East OR Europe (where universities have become rather bad, overall).

These things come in cycles. George Dubya wastes all our treasury on his stupid wars, and things look like the 1980s now again...but there will be upturns...and downturns. Never pooh-pooh and dimiss a large country that is based on work and a good higher-education system. Especially if you're in the Middle East or Europe, taking 3-hour lunches and 5 or 6 coffee breaks during the few hours you actually work.

[Cleopatra]