Job Discussion Forums

[ChinaAndrew]

I spent a year working for Joy school.If applying for a job there, bear in mind that they will also farm you off to other schools.During that year I had constant arguments with them regarding my living and working conditions, none of which were resolved. We signed another contract for another year, only because my partner is a resident of Jilin and I thought that I could tough it out for her sake until she finished her work contract.however, during this time my R.P.F was going to expire(in two weeks).I informed the school and reminded them on several occasions. At the same time the 'headmaster' (who doesn't speak a word of english) decided to go on holiday with his mistress for a month! When I first arrived in china I was working on a tourist visa(which the school said was no problem) and I got busted. After the Joy school paid the police I began working for them, so I was not in a hurry to put myself in that situation again.I told the school(after my R.P.F expired) that I couldn't work until it was renewed. to cut a long story short theygot me the permit and wanted to charge me 200RMB per hour for what they called 'unexcused absence' and wouldn't give me a release letter after I quit,and wanted me to pay them 10,000RMB!what a cheek.As it turns out a release letter is not required, at least in the province I am in now.So at least there is some hope for those who find themselves in difficulty,anything can be done in china.The employers often take advantage of the naivety of foreigners.take care, don't listen to their BS
p.s. I got the R.P.F cancelled and renewed without a letter and without a medical(it can be done)

[kev7161]

I guess the lesson here is that, IF you are having problems getting your Residence Permit renewed (or even getting that first new one to replace your soon-to-expire visa), then talk with the school (maybe up to a month before it expires). First get their side of what they expect of you if/when it expires. If they say "don't worry" . . . worry. Then tell them orally and in a written letter that, IF your permit expires, you won't be able to legally work in China. Tell them that you are certainly not QUITTING the job, but you simply have to stop working for fear of deportation or something. Tell them that you still expect to be paid your regular salary and, if push comes to shove, you will terminate your employment without financial retribution. Then make sure you and they sign your copy and you and they sign their copy. If they refuse to sign, then you know that there could be some possible consequences in the near future and it's time to start making inquiries and packing that bag in preparation for a midnight run.

See, if you go about it politely and professionally, then they have no recourse when they are dragging their heels and not getting things done in a timely manner. If you stamp your feet and threaten and fume a day or two before (or after), then it's pointless. Get all your ducks in a row as far in advance as you can, so it doesn't fall back on you. Newbies take heed: Chinese are FAMOUS for taking their time and putting things on the back burner. As much as we hate it, it's our responsibility to take matters in hand when the time comes. NEVER count on the FAO to do what he/she is hired to do (granted, some are just fine, but don't hold your breath).

[ChinaAndrew]

thanks for your advice.
As it turns out, i did not inform them of my resignation until i had another job.When push came to shove, i said i will not return to work until my salary is in my bank account(earned and owed).They said your salary won't be paid until you come and see us.this went back and forth until i left the city to a new job.with their r.p.f. status that they weren't to happy about, but couldn't do anything about. so I am now seeking my compensation i.e. 20,000rmb for breach of contract for not attending to my paperwork on time.

[clark.w.griswald]

Well said Kev.

I think that a couple of the biggest issues that Chinese people who work with foreigners need to overcome is time management issues and respecting the importance of visa related issues. Nothing can more frustrating than seeing the approaching deadline only to find out that everything has been left to the last minute.

Getting something into the employment contract that guarantees that the school will cover all visa related expenses should the application be made late is a good idea, but is probably not something that most would think of until it is too late. Also having a defined period on a first contract that the Z visa is processed would be a good idea too in order to avoid delays there.

[ChinaAndrew]

In answer to you first question.
no, it was not joy school but an agency that were not forthcoming on their promises, so i was caught teaching illegally.

the joy school bribed/paid a fine for breaking the law.they said they paid 20,000 but i doubt that it was that much.this clause appeared on my contract as breach penalty,but that contract was completed.the new contract had the same breach penalty worded a liittle diferently.

secondly, they breached the contract by not providing me with legal permission to work in china (as stippulated in the contract) so they have no right to keep my money and the breach penalty that also applies to them.

[vikdk]

Dear ChinaAndrew - before answering Clark it may be an interesting excercise for you to wade through Clark's comments on how the FT who feels cheated in this system can find help from the relevant Chinese authorities through their powers of mediation and in the worst cases legal arbitration. I am wondering if at any time during your problems that you felt that going to the authorities was a ready option for you - indeed you seem to hint that an employer had already paid them off once in the case of you working on an illegal visa. Clark seems tp paint a picture of some bright helpful office filled with English-speaking civil servants all ready to jump up and help the poor FT with their troubles - but for you on the front line - did you feel that the system was at hand to help you
I'm also interested in your present quest to press your former employer to pay contract penalties - how are you going about this - what legal aid/help do you get from the Chinese authorities - have you had to fork out any legal costs - what are the expected time-spans in getting a case tried???
Anways good luck to you - I for one would love to eat humble-pie and get told that sorting this stuff out aint to difficult

[ChinaAndrew]

in reality nothing will be done. i am not about to fork out any money for what at best is a joke of a legal system.but i will have quiet satisfaction in knowing that when they are looking for another teacher they will only meet with a brick wall, that is my promise to them.hopefully i can warn others about such people.

[Sinobear]

Clark, Clark, Clark, you've goofed on this one. Schools can write in whatever breach penalty they want. 10K? 20K 100k RMB? They're entitled to it? I don't think so. How many FTs can say that they've received their breach penalty when a school reneges? Hahahahahahaha. Right.

New Fts, cross out the breach penalty on your contracts. If the school wants to hold money from your salary back, tell them you want 25K RMB held in a separate account in your name in case THEY break the contract.

A little trust goes a long way.


Cheers!

[clark.w.griswald]

[vikdk]

[TravellingAround]

Clark - the clauses in an FTs contract are ignored when need be by many, many schools in China.

Also, to suggest just because something is put into a signed contract that it must be honoured isn't the whole story. Even in China many of the contracts that are signed with FTs would not hold up in court.

Some contracts for example ask for three month notice to quit on as small as a twelve month contract or for some ridiculous leaving fee to be paid. You suggest that "It is a fundamental right under contract law for either party to include a breach clause that requires the at breach party to provide damages or cover costs in the case of premature contract breach. This is the way things are and is not something that I invented. " True but that does not mean that ANY old number can plucked out of thin air as you seem to be suggesting. You mention it must be fair but then say 20,000 is fine so I have no idea how high you would have to get for it to be deemed unreasonable in your eyes. A 20,000RMB release clause on a 3,500RMB per month contract is ludicrous yet exists!

The only way schools could retrieve money is by refusing to pay what they owe. You seem to be supporting this approach by schools rather than having them go through legal procedures to regain their money. So...the school can be the judge, jury and executioner and hey...that's OK! Contracts can't just violate employment and labour laws just because there is a signature on a piece of paper. Some of the clauses I have heard of in an FTs contract would be unenforceable. Hence why, in reality, they are rarely if ever enforced.

Actually I agree that there should be a fair breach clause in the contract for both parties as we all must be have known some schools treated poorly by FTs who just decided to leave because they found that they felt like doing something else. This should be fair though and not unfairly high. The schools write up the contract so it is their responsibility to make sure it is fair to both parties. If not then it really isn't worth the paper it is written on.

Many of the details in a contract are only relevant to schools when they want something. Otherwise..."not important...not important."

The school reneged on its commitments by failing to procure the necessary visa. That is an integral part of the employment process. Why should the teacher suffer? If, as seems likely, they messed up then why defend them?

[vikdk]

TravellingAround - with perticular regard to Clark and his posts in this thread - writes -

[Steppenwolf]

You have started a really hot topic, OP! Once you have got those vets - especially vikdk - involved, you have a guarantee that this thread is going to turn out a Marathon race!

From my perspective: First thing - write those 20'000 off! You are never going to get that money, full stop! Is there a breach clause in your contract? Who is going to enforce it? Yes, that's right - you have to hire a lawyer who can charge you up to, shall we say, 1500 kuai an hour. That's what they do in Guangdong, for example! The longer they have to pore over your problem (which they will have to since you are an FT, and FT's problems tend to be far more complex than ordinary CHinese ones!), the more you have to hand over to a greedy man of the Law! No, you won't be able to charge that to the opposite party!
And it will take TIMe, man, a lot of time! Months at least! The school may in the meantime flounder... where would your money come from???

Besides that - you worked illegally, albeit under their order. Who is "guilty" in such cases? That's right - the laowai! The laowai must always respect the laws no matter whether he knows them or not; that doesn't mean his employer has to!

You were also quite lucky in that you were rehired without much formality or fuss! Regard yourself as fortunate and don't push your good stars any further! The next laowai in similar circumstances won't be meeting the same good fate, I would nearly bet on that!

[vikdk]

[ChinaAndrew]

Thanks for you comments. Clark, in answer to your questions yes there was a clause regaring the breach penalty that applied to both parties.As a contract is an agreement between the employer and the employee.I certainly would not sign a contract that had pentalties for me only, who would.We have little rights as it is, that I found out the hard way. It also mentions the responsibilty of my legal working status to be taken care of by the school.It doen't however mention 'on time'. I refused to work until my r.p.f. was renewed to protect myself from any further hassles.So the extra money i.e. what they called unexcused absence when I wasn't legally allowed to work(my new r.p.f. was issued 2 weeks after the expiry date) punishable by 500rmb per day(to me) for overstaying in china never mind working illegally. Another thing is that this branch of the joy school gets their visas from another province because of their gung xi in local government, so It is still illegal from what I understand.Like steppenwolf said, I might as well forget It.I am aware of how futile it would be to pursue this matter.I just had to vent my frustrations and infor others of my personel experience.At the end of the day, I didn't pay them anything.Sure they witheld some of my hard earned money, but were not able to charge me any 'penalties' for their own incompetence, and I left with my visa and found a new job.I will certainly be more careful next time.As steppenwolf said, I was lucky back then and kind of didn't have much of a choice.It was fortunate that at the time of my visit from the psb their current FT did a dissapearing act so they needed me as much as I needed them.Better not challenge the loa ban they don't like it one little bit. Final note Clark more on the agency later, bit of a story to that too.