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| Is the government plan for putting native speaking English teachers into the state school system a good idea? |
| Native speakers in government schools is a good idea, and the current plan is a good one |
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| Native speakers in government schools is a good idea, but the current plan is a bad one |
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| Native speakers in government schools is a bad idea |
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| Total Votes : 5 |
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wood
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 202
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 Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: The new government plan for native speakers in state sch |
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| TravellingAround wrote: |
| wood wrote: |
The salary is too high. Any teacher that takes that salary is going to
be viewed as a very expensive showpiece. I'm not saying that such
a person isn't worth it, but what exactly are appropriate qualifications
and experience?
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Presumably at least a teaching certificate in their own country with preferably as much experience as possible. The point of hiring such teachers should be so they can share the methods and knowledge of their own country's education system. They won't get many of those on a "bushiban salary" as flapjack mentioned when other nearby countries pay far more as will international schools. |
That is not what they want. Yes, international schools may pay more. Likewise, they will require more. And where, exactly, are those nearby countries that pay 'far more'? I may be interested in going to them--I if I haven't already been to any of them. |
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TravellingAround
Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 423
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| Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: The new government plan for native speakers in state sch |
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| wood wrote: |
That is not what they want. |
Yes it is.
From the MOE website the requirements are -
"III. Teachers' qualifications as stipulated in regulations
1. Certified or qualified teachers in their native countries.
2. Graduated from universities or colleges and above."
They are competing with international schools for teachers in that respect as they wanting teachers certificated and with experience teaching. As for international school requiring more...in what? Qualifications or workload? An international school doesn't "require more" than teachers qualified in their own country (preferably with as much teaching experience as possible in the west) yet would be likely to pay more. If it is workload...well the MOE mention that it would be "5 days a week, 8 hours a day" so I doubt it could be much more onerous than that.
http://english.moe.gov.tw/ct.asp?xItem=1407&ctNode=502&mp=2
Compared to the NET scheme in HK and the Singapore MOE recruitment it doesn't seem to be quite as attractive to teach in rural Taiwan. Decent international schools in many nearby countries would pay much more than what the Taiwan MOE is offering yet they are advertising for teachers who could work at these.
Whether they have had to change their requirements since is a different matter. These requirements on their website are what teachers from abroad will see.
If all they want is a native speaker in a school then they are aiming too high if expecting to fill the schools with teachers flying in from abroad. They should relax the regulations and aim at enticing the TEFL-qualified teachers already in the country who they could interview and would already have knowledge through teaching in Taiwan. Whether the local teachers already at the school would accept that however is another point. |
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flapjack
Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 118
Location: "JENNY 2" shrimp boat
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:34 am Post subject: |
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This is becoming a very interesting subject. I haven't read any of the MOE documents concerning this topic but I feel like I am learning heaps just following this thread.
I can speak from personal experience about working in TW public school system because I am currently working in one. From my personal experience I would say that the public schools desperately need foreign teachers but ones who will not be cowed into teaching English like a side-show at a carnival. For some reason it seems the they have got it into their head that a good English teacher needs to use high energy levels and be entertaining. If not you are thought of as slow, boring and ineffectual. I could go on but feel like I would be preaching to the choir here.
Local English teachers have a great advantage in being able to translate things readily into Chinese to facilitate understanding. The problem with translating is that it becomes a crutch. When a foreign teacher is giving the class the responsibilty lies with the students to try to comprehend. This leads to better language discovery skills.
Another huge problem with public schools is that the foriegn teachers are only allowed to teach audio-lingual parts of English. We are not allowed to teach reading and writing.
I think it's retarded not to allow foreign teachers to teach reading and writing. It's like taking your car to a mechanic and saying,"Fix my car but don't use a wrench or a screwdriver."
About Singapore, they did the right thing years ago when they made English and Chinese the official languages of their country. No wonder they are best at speaking English of all the asian countries. Taiwan had a chance to make that same decision years ago but they didn't.
I agree that the Gov. should lower their standards as far as qualifications, there are plenty of good foreign teachers who would work for 60,000NT a month in public schools.
Last edited by flapjack on Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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flapjack
Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 118
Location: "JENNY 2" shrimp boat
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 2:52 am Post subject: |
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I am breaking this up into 2 posts to make it flow better.
I would like to say something more on the division of teaching responsibilties between the foreign and local teachers.
Actually, I think that public schools that have both can better serve the students. But let's go back the analogy of the mechanic doing his job without a screwdriver or a wrench. That's not really accurate. It would be more like going into a garage and telling the mechanics, "OK you use the screwdriver and the wrench and the other mechanic uses the power drill and the welder." Talk about an ineffectual way to fix your car. Wouldn't it be better if both mechanics could use ALL the tools!
What's really going on is that local teachers want to protect their jobs, which is understandable but the students are the ones who suffer the most. Also the foreign teacher suffers from not being able to do his/her job well. Then they have to take flack if the students are not learning properly. The area that suffers most in this deal is reading and writing. I sincerely believe that these should be taught by the native speaker. So what would be left for the local teacher? Most Local teachers are very able at teaching grammar, language lab operation, vocabulary,and translation. But they fall short in teaching audio-lingual skills and writing.
Instead of breaking up the work they should work together doing all of it. Local teachers should be willing to learn western methods.
Unless these issues are adressed and solved Taiwan will continue to have problems keeping good foreign teachers working here.
Last edited by flapjack on Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| TravellingAround wrote: |
| Wouldn't a more worthwhile role would be for them to teach western teaching methodology and their experiences to the staff...meaning they didn't have to continually keep bringing in teachers from abroad? |
Not from my perspective it wouldn't.
I am certainly no advocate of the way things are done in the education system here in Taiwan, and the drilling mentality that they use is not only boring for students, but also pretty much totally useless for anything other than passing exams. But this is what it is all about - passing exams. And thats what the majority of parents care about, not whether little Timmy can converse with a foreigner in English, nor whether he can write a short story in English. He should of course be able to do that in Chinese, but English is not the native language here, and for school aged students it is nothing more than another subject.
It seems clear to me that a group of highly educated teachers from foreign lands bringing what works back there methodology wise to the classrooms here in Taiwan is not the answer to the problem though.
The aim of the program is two fold:
1. for show - to show to the world and the Taiwanese public that Taiwan takes learning the English language seriously;
2. a half assed effort to westernize the kids, get them involved with foreigners, and hopefully let them improve their English along the way
The only reason that the government has set the requirements for 'real teachers' is to placate the local teachers, and to set the program aside from the buxiban scene. When the program was initially proposed it met with a lot of criticism, especially from local teachers, and having minimum requirements was just a way for the government to pretend that it was taking the whole program seriously.
It seems to me that any teacher who believes that his or her role in the program is anything more than as a classroom teacher of oral English is surely going to be in for a rude awakening. That said, I am sure that the teachers in the program do achieve a lot more than the typical buxiban teacher so I do not believe that the program is a failure. I just feel that the expectations of the teachers within the program, and the expectations of the MOE in regards to the program, are both very different.
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| Presumably if they are after experienced school teachers they are after more than just a native speaker? |
No offence intended to anyone here, but my personal opinion is that some people are naturally good teachers and some aren't. I don't believe that you can be taught to be teacher, you just get taught how to teach, and I believe that there is a distinction there. I respect the qualification, and I support the fact that this program is only open to qualified teachers, but I don't believe that qualifications and experience back home are necessarily a real advantage in the typical junior high school classroom in Taiwan.
Additionally, experience in classrooms back home does not prepare one well for what you will experience here in Taiwan. It is not likely to hurt in most cases, but in some cases the disparity between the two learning environments can cause big problems, especially if an experienced teacher from back home expects things to be done the same way as back home.
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| Besides...what satisfaction would such a job hold for a qualified, experienced teacher? |
Perhaps this is one of the reasons that the program has failed to generate much interest among professional teachers.
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| They would be used to creating curricula and being given plenty of leeway at home. Yet in Taiwan they are not even trusted to teach reading and writing? |
The English curriculum is centralized by the government so in Taiwan they would be given a book and asked to teach it.
Perhaps my earlier post was not clear. I am not saying that these teachers do not teach anything other than oral English. I am saying that in my opinion the value of a native English speaker is in most cases limited to oral English practice. For me, grammar is best taught by Chinese teachers as they can understand where students are likely to encounter problems, and if necessary they can use Chinese to explain the grammar and it's usage. It is then up to the foreign teacher to ensure that they use it properly.
Writing would certainly be an area that foreign teachers would be helpful with and I accept that this is indeed another value of foreigners in the classroom, unfortunately the writing component for test purposes is generally pretty minor.
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| If it is just for Oral English practice then it seems rather excessive to be hiring from abroad when plenty of teachers already based in Taiwan can do the job just as well and are available for interview. |
I agree. The only reason that the government does not do this is due to the fact that they need to keep a certain prestige attached to this program if they want the local taxpayers to continue funding it. Bringing in a foreign professional from overseas seems more palatable to the locals than hiring the guy from the local Sesame Street kindergarten. I can understand this, but I don't agree that they are necessarily getting better teachers.
| flapjack wrote: |
| But let's go back the analogy of the mechanic doing his job without a screwdriver or a wrench. That's not really accurate. It would be more like going into a garage and telling the mechanics, "OK you use the screwdriver and the wrench and the other mechanic uses the power drill and the welder." Talk about an ineffectual way to fix your car. Wouldn't it be better if both mechanics could use ALL the tools! |
But both the foreign teacher and the local teacher can use all of the tools, it is just that each of them is better with some of the tools than others. This is recognized and the decision is made for everyones sake that each person will use the tools that they are best equipped to handle.
At the end of the day the car gets fixed, and theoretically it gets fixed much better, and perhaps much quicker, as everyone has concentrated on what they are good at.
| flapjack wrote: |
| What's really going on is that local teachers want to protect their jobs, which is understandable but the students are the ones who suffer the most. |
I don't agree with this.
The education system in Taiwan is how it is whether we like it or not. It is all about memorization and passing exams through drilling preparation. Any school that throws that requirement out the window and plonks a qualified foreign teacher from a foreign land and with a western methodology and allows that teacher to attempt to take the students in a direction that he or she sees fit, is in my opinion going to see those kids suffer.
I would like to see English become a more enjoyable subject for students in Taiwan so that they can see the value of it as a language rather than as just another subject. I believe that this is what this program can do and does do.
Expectations from teaching participants any higher than that are likely to be met with disappointment.
| flapjack wrote: |
| The area that suffers most in this deal is reading and writing. |
Taiwanese students are very much lacking in their English abilities and this shows in their lack of confidence to speak and the fact that their writing is generally pretty terrible. I agree that foreign teachers are the ones who can help with these two areas, but neither of these are the emphasis of the testing that goes on.
I would be surprised that a foreign teacher would be prevented from teaching writing, and in fact I would think that it would be a good follow up to both the oral English class and whatever grammar classes the Chinese teachers may have given. Are you being prevented from doing writing with your students? |
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flapjack
Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 118
Location: "JENNY 2" shrimp boat
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:30 am Post subject: |
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Clark wrote:
| Quote: |
| The education system in Taiwan is how it is whether we like it or not. It is all about memorization and passing exams through drilling preparation. Any school that throws that requirement out the window and plonks a qualified foreign teacher from a foreign land and with a western methodology and allows that teacher to attempt to take the students in a direction that he or she sees fit, is in my opinion going to see those kids suffer. |
I can't agree. I think this exactly the reason Taiwan has one of the lowest standards of Enlgish in the Far East. They haven't learned that a western language needs to be taught in a western manner. As long as they persist in having English taught with only flashcards and sentence patterns they will never improve.
To answer your question, I was asked not to teach any writing.
BTW, Do you teach in a TW public school or have you ever taught in one? |
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flapjack
Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 118
Location: "JENNY 2" shrimp boat
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:46 am Post subject: |
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Clark wrote:
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But both the foreign teacher and the local teacher can use all of the tools, it is just that each of them is better with some of the tools than others. This is recognized and the decision is made for everyones sake that each person will use the tools that they are best equipped to handle.
At the end of the day the car gets fixed, and theoretically it gets fixed much better, and perhaps much quicker, as everyone has concentrated on what they are good at. |
English teachers in public schools are NOT allowed to use all the tools of language learning at their disposal, only audio-ligual methods.
And it is woefully appearant that teaching English in such a manner is not conducive to learning.
Last edited by flapjack on Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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flapjack
Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 118
Location: "JENNY 2" shrimp boat
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:08 am Post subject: |
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Clark wrote:
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| Taiwanese students are very much lacking in their English abilities and this shows in their lack of confidence to speak and the fact that their writing is generally pretty terrible. I agree that foreign teachers are the ones who can help with these two areas, but neither of these are the emphasis of the testing that goes on. |
This my point exactly. Their lack of confidence in speaking is directly related to having reading and writing taught by non-native speakers. The idea that foreigners are only needed for teaching oral skills is bunk.
I taught in the University of Mexico for ten years using a nine level curriculum that included every skill. The students learned far more and passed the exams they needed to enter American Universities. And I never had one class micro-managed by a Mexican national.
Why can't they do that here in Taiwan?
I will tell you why. Becasue they are too stubborn to allow foreigners a free hand in doing what they do best. |
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TravellingAround
Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 423
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
Additionally, experience in classrooms back home does not prepare one well for what you will experience here in Taiwan. It is not likely to hurt in most cases, but in some cases the disparity between the two learning environments can cause big problems, especially if an experienced teacher from back home expects things to be done the same way as back home.
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Disagree. An experienced teacher worth their salt would be able to adapt accordingly. Not that every experienced teacher is worth their salt...but those good teachers can change their approach. It is only if the teacher is too rigid to change that there would be a problem. Qualification doesn't make one a teacher but it should at least create a professional approach to teaching (lesson plans, schemes of work etc are drilled in during the course teaching). Personally I don't think people are 'natural teachers' per se (anymore than someone is a natural doctor) but rather that some have more of a potential to become one if you understand my meaning. Some qualified teachers will never be able to bring life to a lesson while other people are great with a class. Nobody is a teacher without experience though and the ability to plan, evaluate, understand how their students learn etc. Theoretically a qualification should provide that like a degree should provide knowledge of a subject. Whether it does or not is another debating point but not what we are discussing here.
Also regarding the western methodology....I fail to see what the point of bringing experienced teachers from abroad is if they just want them to teach exactly in the Taiwan style. Any educational system that isn't open to any external ideas or differing ideologies is...let's be honest...a poor one. Education should be about innovation and progression. Otherwise all you are leaving with rubbishy rote-learning dominated schooling which lets down at least many students as it helps.
Other initiatives of this kind tend to have been in more developed places. Singapore and Hong Kong are unsurprisingly more open to outside ideas after their years of colonialism. Is it a case that Taiwan is not as open to outside influences but is instead only interested in a 'Taiwan Way' of doing things?
If so...trying to get experienced teachers from abroad is a waste...they don't seem to wish to utilise their ideas or experience anyway. So save money and get someone local without qualification maybe but with the experience of teaching Taiwanese. |
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TravellingAround
Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 423
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
It seems clear to me that a group of highly educated teachers from foreign lands bringing what works back there methodology wise to the classrooms here in Taiwan is not the answer to the problem though.
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No but by passing on their own methodology the local teachers could take which parts they like and see what works in class. In China I taught teachers in the summer and they were extremely open to my ideas and those of the other teachers. Then again...maybe I had a good group. Are Taiwanese teachers open or are they, like many Chinese teachers, rigid to change?
If Taiwan is seeking to bring in foreign teachers from abroad but not bother learning from them then the project is a joke. If they just want them in for show and to do an hour or so Oral English then it is no surprise that they can't even come close to getting the teachers in. They don't deserve them and students will suffer by not having a native English teacher and forever being afraid to speak English. Let foreigners do what they do best...teach English.
After a certain level all English lessons should be exclusively in English. Can the local teachers do that anymore? No wonder so many Chinese have to translate everything into Chinese and back before giving an answer. |
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flapjack
Joined: 20 Oct 2006
Posts: 118
Location: "JENNY 2" shrimp boat
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Great posts travelingaround,
Clark did make a couple of valid points but seems to be mostly theorizing about things he clearly doesn't understand. No offense intended. I doubt seriously he has ever taught in a public school in TW. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| flapjack wrote: |
| I think this exactly the reason Taiwan has one of the lowest standards of Enlgish in the Far East. They haven't learned that a western language needs to be taught in a western manner. As long as they persist in having English taught with only flashcards and sentence patterns they will never improve. |
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the Taiwan system cannot and should not be improved upon.
What I am saying is that plonking foreign teachers in random schools around the island and thinking that they will be spreading the word of western philosophy of teaching is probably not the best way to go about this.
Fundamental to what I am saying is that regardless of whether you or I are wrong about how we should see change, isolated foreign teachers who try to get their students to break from tradition may be doing more harm than good.
| flapjack wrote: |
| To answer your question, I was asked not to teach any writing. |
My guess would be that they didn't want you to teach writing in class as they felt that it was a waste of your valuable time speaking with the kids and having them speak. This is what I was referring to earlier when I mentioned that the value perceived by most schools, students, and parents, of a foreign teacher is for oral practice. Again I am not saying that this is all that foreign teachers are able to do, but it is certainly what most foreign teachers are good at.
Could you have set writing tasks for homework?
| flapjack wrote: |
| BTW, Do you teach in a TW public school or have you ever taught in one? |
Yes I have actually. My first experience inside a government school classroom was back in 1995 and I have had many since. I have taught both elementary and junior high school level, but my experience with senior high school has been limited to those after hours classes that some schools hold on school grounds for students who elect to take those classes.
| flapjack wrote: |
| English teachers in public schools are NOT allowed to use all the tools of language learning at their disposal, only audio-ligual methods. |
It was your analogy so how does this fit within it? You were talking about tools and mechanics. Are you now suggesting that the mechanics you were referring to were not allowed to use tools? Perhaps I am confused by your earlier analogy now. Can you explain it in this new context?
| flapjack wrote: |
| And it is woefully appearant that teaching English the Taiwanese way is an abysmal failure. |
From whose point of view?
The far majority of students and parents see English as a subject to be passed at test time along with all of the others. This is what happens when you make a subject compulsory and kids are forced to learn what they neither have an interest in nor an aptitude for.
The fact that you (and most other foreigners including myself) feel that these kids are not learning enough to be proficient in our language may seem to us to be a failure, but is that really their aim. I don't think that it is. I think that their aim is to be able to say that they passed this or that English test. The current system is based upon this and this is what the locals judge to be success in English class.
I think that it is great that there are buxibans and extra-curricular programs for kids who want to learn more than textbook English, but this does not validate westerners imposing their views on education upon students who are caught up in a certain system. If you truly want to see change then I suggest that you achieve this at an administrative level not through the students.
| flapjack wrote: |
| Their lack of confidence in speaking is directly related to having reading and writing taught by non-native speakers. |
I don't profess to be an expert on the human mind and as such I don't know enough about this topic to argue this point either way.
What I do know however is that whether you are right or wrong it doesn't change the fact that English is just a subject here. It is a foreign language that is alloted a certain amount of time in the curriculum and as per my earlier comments the emphasis of learning is on passing tests.
I have already agreed that it would be beneficial for a foreign teacher to teach writing, but writing is not a big component of what they do in English class. Oral practice and grammar are the two key areas, and it seems to me that foreign teachers are best at teaching the oral component and local teachers are best at teaching the grammar component. This is why I support the practice of having foreign teachers in schools, but I question the validity of any argument that suggests that they should take the lead role.
| flapjack wrote: |
Why can't they do that here in Taiwan?
I will tell you why. Becasue they are too stubborn to allow foreigners a free hand in doing what they do best. |
Can you perhaps explain to me how you see the whole thing proceeding if indeed foreigners were given this free hand?
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| Qualification doesn't make one a teacher but it should at least create a professional approach to teaching (lesson plans, schemes of work etc are drilled in during the course teaching). |
But given the fact that most work in government schools does not require these skills, does that not call into question the value of these teachers in the Taiwan school system? I think that it does.
What would end up happening is that you would end up with a foreign teacher who wants to go in one direction, with an administration, teachers, and parents, who want to go in another. I think that it would be misplaced to say that either was wrong, but it is certainly not in the students best interests to have this conflict in their classrooms.
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| Nobody is a teacher without experience though and the ability to plan, evaluate, understand how their students learn etc. Theoretically a qualification should provide that like a degree should provide knowledge of a subject. |
Personally I don't agree. I have seen some really good teachers here in Taiwan who were not trained teachers. They were good communicators and they taught themselves the processes to teaching. They learned from their kids, and their kids learned from them.
To me university teaches you how to learn, but I don't think that the actual discipline on the diploma is as important as the fact that one has learned how to learn.
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| Also regarding the western methodology....I fail to see what the point of bringing experienced teachers from abroad is if they just want them to teach exactly in the Taiwan style. |
I agree that there is questionable value in bringing in teachers from overseas, but only if those teachers think that the answer is to do what they do overseas in the classrooms here. Different students, different circumstances, different culture, different needs.
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| Any educational system that isn't open to any external ideas or differing ideologies is...let's be honest...a poor one. Education should be about innovation and progression. Otherwise all you are leaving with rubbishy rote-learning dominated schooling which lets down at least many students as it helps. |
And this is probably the sort of attitude that students probably don't need to see in schools here in Taiwan. Western teachers with this attitude may be best staying within the confines of their suburban life back home where things are already done exactly as they like.
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| Other initiatives of this kind tend to have been in more developed places. Singapore and Hong Kong are unsurprisingly more open to outside ideas after their years of colonialism. Is it a case that Taiwan is not as open to outside influences but is instead only interested in a 'Taiwan Way' of doing things? |
I don't think that these are fair comparisons to be making and in fact question their relevance at all.
Taiwan would be more like Japan, Korea, and Mainland China. Compared to those cultures I think that the experience in Taiwan schools is slightly better.
| flapjack wrote: |
| Clark did make a couple of valid points but seems to be mostly theorizing about things he clearly doesn't understand. No offense intended. I doubt seriously he has ever taught in a public school in TW. |
I think that it is a shame that you chose to take this tone flapjack. I was enjoying have an adult discussion on this worthy topic, but now I fear that the discussion is just going to degenerate into insults and personal attacks. Shame really! |
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TravellingAround
Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 423
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| flapjack wrote: |
| And it is woefully appearant that teaching English the Taiwanese way is an abysmal failure. |
From whose point of view?
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The Taiwanese government presumably. They don't make learning English compulsory to just have students pass the exam. They obviously want more of their population to be able to use English to improve interaction with the outside world and, I guess, as a panacea to solve problems which the language is viewed as by many countries. Learn English...and we will be more like the rich west!
I'm not up to date about the feeling in Taiwan but it is certainly the case that the Chinese government is disappointed (search the net - this was reported quite recently) at the level of English that its system is producing. Unsurprisingly the students just want to pass an exam for a language most will rarely need to use unless they are actually English (or related subjects) majors. The government of China is looking at how to improve this but how changing such a huge system with its own traditions without a massive effort is very difficult.
Anyway, my main point is that if the MOE really wanted to get the best of the teachers qualified to teach at western schools then they have to make the offer more enticing. What kind of percentage are we talking of places that they have filled? 30%? I'm pretty sure I read it was well under half meaning many schools won't have a foreign teacher at all. Do these schools need one? I don't know but from my experience in China those schools there really do. There are way too many Chinese English teachers who can barely speak the language influencing their poor kids to speak poor Chinglish as well. I know...I went to some schools like this and unfortunately they all catered for the poorest of students. |
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TravellingAround
Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 423
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| Any educational system that isn't open to any external ideas or differing ideologies is...let's be honest...a poor one. Education should be about innovation and progression. Otherwise all you are leaving with rubbishy rote-learning dominated schooling which lets down at least many students as it helps. |
And this is probably the sort of attitude that students probably don't need to see in schools here in Taiwan. Western teachers with this attitude may be best staying within the confines of their suburban life back home where things are already done exactly as they like.
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Teachers like yourself you must mean? After all you mentioned "I am not saying that the Taiwan system cannot and should not be improved upon." Twist it if you wish but the attitude is similar to yours although I admit I'm amplifying it for effect as it is after all a messageboard...mainly for the purposes of enhancing the discussion.
So...it's OK for you want change to occur but not for anyone else? You certainly seem to be being unfair here. Or was it the manner in which I put the question? I'd also suggest that you should you not be so presumptuous as to believe you know people by what you believe to be an "attitude" based on something someone might say on a messageboard. It hardly amounts to a raison d'etre. You also seem to have an attitude in some way...why is your attitude better than others? I don't mean this in a negative way...we all have an attitude after all...but what is wrong in people wanting to change things for the better?
Besides, I'm talking more evolution than revolution. If they don't want ideas from western teachers then why are they hiring them? If they don't want people with experience of teaching in the west then why are they hiring them? If they don't want teachers to use their own methods then why hire them? I'm not suggesting discarding all aspects of Chinese education but surely western teachers would adapt their own techniques?
However, and I repeat..."Any educational system that isn't open to any external ideas or differing ideologies is...let's be honest...a poor one. " Now I've no experience of teaching in Taiwan so wasn't meaning to refer to it directly, it was just a trigger for anything discursive that would enlighten. Well...I think the quote is a bit of a truism surely? Any educational system which values whatever was done in the past over and above the needs of the students isn't necessarily a force for good. I'd suggest that (in principle) all western educational systems are open to change and pursuing whatever methods that work for the student. I don't know if is this philosophy is utilised at all in Taiwan (it was amongst many younger teachers in China). If anyone would like to say how they think the Taiwan educational system is at present then I am all ears...I'd like to hear views on it.
What is wrong in wanting to bring the knowledge they know and apply it in Taiwan? That is what foreign teachers do after all anyway?
I don't see why, given co-operation between the school and the foreign teacher, new ideas cannot be tried. However I do agree fully that it should not be a case of an FT acting completely unilaterally. That wouldn't work...so maybe the co-operation betwixt school and FT requires looking into? Students will not be helped by an FT pulling them one way and the school another.
Last edited by TravellingAround on Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:20 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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TravellingAround
Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 423
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| TravellingAround wrote: |
| Nobody is a teacher without experience though and the ability to plan, evaluate, understand how their students learn etc. Theoretically a qualification should provide that like a degree should provide knowledge of a subject. |
Personally I don't agree. I have seen some really good teachers here in Taiwan who were not trained teachers. They were good communicators and they taught themselves the processes to teaching. They learned from their kids, and their kids learned from them.
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I never said that you had to be trained to be a teacher and I have known plenty of good teachers who have never been trained or certainly no more than a quick TEFL course. However I was suggesting that teaching is more than just standing in front of the class which, after initially disagreeing with me you seem to agree with my point. Make up your mind! 
However this is taking us off-topic...so back to the MOE...
PS - You suggested that it is unfair to compare Taiwan with HK/Singapore. I don't think so in this case as they are competing for the same kind of teachers? It's not so much a comparison of the countries but instead of seemingly similar attempts to get native teachers into public schools...although it may only be superfically similar as we seem to be discussing now.  |
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