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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 500 Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: Kansai-ben question |
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Hi folks,
Quick question about Kansai-ben here. I've been living in Tokyo for the past several years and can get by in Japanese. I'm now considering leaving Tokyo for another part of Japan and I'm thinking of Kobe or Osaka.
Should I expect the Kansai-ben used in daily life to be a big problem. I think everybody knows about the "wakarahen" thing, but is it usually just a matter of substituting something for something else, ie "hen" for "nai" or are the differences more fundamental? Will I basically have to relearn Japanese?
I've been to Osaka and didn't really have any problems understanding people, but I assume they were standardizing their speech for me.
Thanks,
Mark |
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Zzonkmiles

Joined: 05 Apr 2003 Posts: 309
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Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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You will be fine without learning Osaka-ben.
Having said that, it will make your casual relationships with Japanese people go more smoothly, perhaps.
Other useful things to learn:
honma = hontou
akan = dame/stop doing something
"Sore akan." (That's no good.)
nen = untranslatable, but kinda has a "What the hell?" nuance
"Nani iutten nen?" (What the hell are you talking about?)
maido = thank you; hello (commonly used in shops)
Most people will use standard Japanese or polite Japanese (keigo) in businesses.
If you're a male, the best way to learn Osaka-ben is to make some local Japanese male friends who have little or no interest in learning English. Go to the ramen restaurants at night and just soak up the conversation wihle you eat. Pay attention to the way they end their sentences or shorten some words.
Have fun. |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 500 Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the reply Zonk.
The language thing was my main concern and the main thing that was making me a little nervous about moving to Kansai.
Cool then. If things go as planned, I'll be arriving in April!
Mark |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 500 Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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I would also ask if Kobe is much different than Osaka? I visited both of them briefly and Kobe seemed much greener and more livable, but are there any other differences? |
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furiousmilksheikali

Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 1660 Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Mark wrote: |
I would also ask if Kobe is much different than Osaka? I visited both of them briefly and Kobe seemed much greener and more livable, but are there any other differences? |
Kobe is a little nicer on the eye than Osaka, but it's generally less interesting after you've seen all the artificial attractions. Kobe has a reputation for being a little posher than Osaka but this can be translated as more materialistic/contrived. |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 500 Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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furiousmilksheikali wrote: |
Mark wrote: |
I would also ask if Kobe is much different than Osaka? I visited both of them briefly and Kobe seemed much greener and more livable, but are there any other differences? |
Kobe is a little nicer on the eye than Osaka, but it's generally less interesting after you've seen all the artificial attractions. Kobe has a reputation for being a little posher than Osaka but this can be translated as more materialistic/contrived. |
Thanks for the reply. I gather from your post that you don't see any particular reason to live in Kobe rather than Osaka. I suppose what I'm wondering is if there are any daily life differences in terms of lifestyle or people's attitude. I've met folks from Kobe and they usually seem to want to distance themselves from Osaka and say that life in Kobe is different, so I just wondered if there was anything to that or not. Then there's that whole argument that Kobe is more international -- whatever that means.
The one interesting thing I came across though is that, apparently, Kobe invests the most money per capita into English education than anywhere else in Japan and supposedly it has some of the best results. Any truth to this?
Plus, I'm from Vancouver and Kobe's little mini-mountains appeal to me! |
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furiousmilksheikali

Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 1660 Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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Mark wrote: |
Thanks for the reply. I gather from your post that you don't see any particular reason to live in Kobe rather than Osaka. |
No reason that I know of. I suppose it depends on what you are looking for.
Kobe has a lot of "pleasant" areas such as the harbour and the skyline as seen from Mount Rokko at night, but I can't see these things holding much long term appeal.
It does have its own China town but it looks very "Disneyfied" to me. A sweet little place to visit but don't imagine for a second it is anything like an authentic trip to China.
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I've met folks from Kobe and they usually seem to want to distance themselves from Osaka and say that life in Kobe is different, so I just wondered if there was anything to that or not. Then there's that whole argument that Kobe is more international -- whatever that means. |
A lot of Osakans like to distance themselves from Kobe residents as well. Kobe is "international" in the same way that the EPCOT centre in Florida is international and it is "international" in the sense that a lot of short term ex-pats with no real interest in Japan turn up and live on man-made islands such as Port Island and Rokko Island. But these places look to me like UK universities from the 60s. Worse, whoever was funding Rokko Island clearly ran out of money before the place was finished. If it is a testament to Kobe's "internationalism" then it is a very sterile one.
"Folks from Kobe" tend to have a very conceited opinion of themselves and believe that just because Kobe attracts richer people the people there are "better". The distinction that Kobe residents like to make is that whereas they are "jouhin", Osaka is "gehin". It is an embarrassment to a lot of them that Amagasaki is within the borders of Hyogo prefecture.
If the word "nice" is a regular feature in your vocabulary then Kobe may be a place for you.
Quote: |
The one interesting thing I came across though is that, apparently, Kobe invests the most money per capita into English education than anywhere else in Japan and supposedly it has some of the best results. Any truth to this? |
This I don't know about. It is possibly true but how relevant will it be to your workplace? |
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kitano
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 86
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:38 am Post subject: kobe vs Osaka |
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I live in Kobe and there is a lot of friendly rivalry with Osaka. Personally I prefer Kobe as it is 'nicer' and you can go to Osaka anytime you want but usually you will find it more and more of a pain to go to Osaka because what is really there that you can't get in Kobe? and vice versa Osaka friends can't be bothered to go to Kobe because what is there that is not in Osaka? six of one and a half dozen of the other.
I chose Kobe more for the hills and ocean. The hills are great to go hiking in when you have time but I don't really feel near the sea unless I go out west of Kobe. Kobe seems less crowded compared to Osaka. One important point is jobs. The Osaka area has more opportunities, you can commute since it is only 18 minutes from Kobe to Osaka but that is a pain in the ass.
I haven't hear or noticed Kobe spends more on Eng Ed. If anything I would say less as Kobe is broke from the earthquake, airport, etc. |
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6810

Joined: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 309
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:05 am Post subject: |
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I second the Chinatown thing. In fact Chinatowns in Japan are generally kind of lame and I would say homogeneous. In Australia, CHinatowns in Melbourne, Sydney and Brisbane have rather different feels, architecture, shops as well as all the usual supermarkets, internet cafes, groovy buddhist vego restaurants, illegal majong palours etc...
The hills around Kobe are actually kind of cool. Ali is right about the class factor but Osaka is a sihthole urban sprawl and Kobe is a harbor with hills.
An 18 minute is a pain in the Ass? WTF?! |
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sallycat
Joined: 11 Mar 2006 Posts: 303 Location: behind you. BOO!
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:32 am Post subject: |
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Zzonkmiles wrote: |
You will be fine without learning Osaka-ben.
Having said that, it will make your casual relationships with Japanese people go more smoothly, perhaps.
Other useful things to learn:
honma = hontou
akan = dame/stop doing something
"Sore akan." (That's no good.)
nen = untranslatable, but kinda has a "What the hell?" nuance
"Nani iutten nen?" (What the hell are you talking about?)
maido = thank you; hello (commonly used in shops)
Most people will use standard Japanese or polite Japanese (keigo) in businesses.
If you're a male, the best way to learn Osaka-ben is to make some local Japanese male friends who have little or no interest in learning English. Go to the ramen restaurants at night and just soak up the conversation wihle you eat. Pay attention to the way they end their sentences or shorten some words.
Have fun. |
also, don't use "kimi" and "boku" unless you want to sound camp.
"nen" can just be part of the present continuous tense. thus, "guitar hitenen nen" = "i'm playing guitar". "nani yuten nen?" = "what are you saying, but the (the hell) is implied.
a good book to check out is "kinki japanese", though there are other good ones.
it took me very little time to adjust to kansai-ben after i moved to osaka. |
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kitano
Joined: 18 Nov 2004 Posts: 86
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:27 am Post subject: Kansai ben |
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Quote: |
also, don't use "kimi" and "boku" unless you want to sound camp. |
I rarely hear "kimi" but men use "boku" all the time in Kansai, I don't know what you are talking about. |
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Zzonkmiles

Joined: 05 Apr 2003 Posts: 309
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:31 am Post subject: |
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Osaka is about 2 or 3 times larger than Kobe. Kobe itself has about 1.3 million people.
The Shinkansen (bullet train) stops in Kobe and Osaka, so they are equally convenient for traveling in that regard. However, Osaka has major transportation hubs in Umeda, Kyobashi, and Tennoji, so it's easier to get to more places from Osaka than from Kobe by regular train. Both cities have decent bus systems and a subway system. Osaka has 9 subway lines; Kobe has 2.
Kobe seems to have a higher concentration of shops, bars, restaurants, and cultural stuff. If you're into music (especially jazz), you will be quite pleased. Osaka has all of this stuff too, but it's spread out over a greater area.
The primary hangout place in Kobe is Sannomiya/Motomachi. Osaka has two primary places to hang out: Umeda/Kitashinchi and Namba/Shinsaibashi.
Kobe does have a small Chinatown, but I couldn't imagine going there more than two or three times. Osaka has something of a Koreatown in Tsuruhashi and I have yet to go there even though I've been in the area for more than three years.
Choose Osaka if you like big cities and being in the center of the action. Kobe has everything Osaka has, but is smaller and actually FEELS less congested. It's also cleaner and quite close to the beach and the mountains. You also have the harbor in Kobe, so that's a nice place to relax. Kobe has a much higher concentration of English teachers as well, so the city's level of English support is quite surprising.
As for "kimi" and "boku," I think "boku" is quite common and is not related to Osaka-ben at all. I used boku all the time with no problems. "Kimi" is not really used so much. People tend to use "anta" (short for anata) for "you." "Watashi" is fine for women. Men should use "boku" in casual situations. (I'm just not an "ore" person.) |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 500 Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I get the Kobe/Osaka thing. Choosing Kobe sounds pretty much like choosing the Kannai/downtown area of Yokohama rather than choosing to live in Tokyo. Which I would probably do if it didn't take so long to get into town.
Question: if you miss the train, is it reasonably affordable (say, less than 5,000 yen) to take a taxi between Osaka and Kobe?
I guess I'll just go for whichever place I end up getting a job in. That seems to be the major hurdle in moving to Kansai, there just aren't that many jobs on offer. There always seem to be jobs in Wakayama though. I wonder why that is.
In Tokyo, you can't turn around without tripping over a job, both teaching and non-teaching, so it's certainly a bit of a change.
Oh well. |
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furiousmilksheikali

Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 1660 Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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Mark wrote: |
Question: if you miss the train, is it reasonably affordable (say, less than 5,000 yen) to take a taxi between Osaka and Kobe?
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No. |
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Mark
Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 500 Location: Tokyo, Japan
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Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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Ok then, I'd best live in whichever city I'm most likely to miss the train in! |
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