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tvik
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: here
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 Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:15 am Post subject: Iran, France, Germany, Turkey |
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The conference on the jewish genocide currently being held in Iran is an attempt to expose the hypocrisy of the west. Personally, I would support, as Noam Chompsky did, a persons right to speak about the issues.
The question is, how can Turkey take European ideals of freedom of speach seriously when the west has limits on the press and the right to speak your mind? |
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Golightly
Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 877
Location: in the bar, next to the raki
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Aside from the troll-esque nature of the forum subject, I'd point out that there is very little doubt that the Holocaust happened - there is far too much evidence to argue otherwise. The only people who'd argue to the contrary are pro-nazi sympathisers and those who believe Israel should be wiped off the map. Therefore a conference designed to debate whether the Holocaust actually happened or not is rather pointless. What are the bets that this conference will discover that the concentration camps didn't really exist? A similar argument is to heard by those who believe that Creationism - sorry, Intelligent Design - is a viable theory compary to Darwinism. |
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tvik
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: here
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:36 am Post subject: |
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The physical evidence that exists and the personal accounts of the holocaust, not to mention the pictures of the event, should erase any doubts that people have about the reality of what happened.
What I was refering to in my post is the double standards that people carry with them and then impose on others.
The conference was not set up to deny the holocause. The conference is happening because the israelis are killing palestinians in a way that borders on genocide and the Iranians want to show Israel as a country built on double standards.
The debate on both the holocaust and on the Armenian question need to be de-politicised in order to get closer to the truth.
In France, Germany and Turkey people are not capable of carrying out a rational discussion on either topic. There are a variety of questions in the U.S. and Canada that are similarly unspeakable.
Thus, no country has freedom of speach. |
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Golightly
Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 877
Location: in the bar, next to the raki
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The conference was not set up to deny the holocause. |
so why is it packed to the gills with Holocaust deniers? |
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Golightly
Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 877
Location: in the bar, next to the raki
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:26 am Post subject: |
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Outrage over Holocaust conference
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has met delegates at a conference in Iran questioning the Holocaust, drawing widespread international criticism.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel condemned it and British PM Tony Blair called it "shocking beyond belief".
Iran says it wants to debate what it calls taboos surrounding the Holocaust. Conference participants include white supremacists and Holocaust deniers.
Some six million Jews were murdered by the Nazi regime during World War II.
According to the foreign ministry in Tehran, 67 researchers from 30 countries are attending the conference in Iran, which is home to 25,000 Jews.
Participants include a number of well-known "revisionist" Western academics. American David Duke, a former leader of the Ku Klux Klan, is to present a paper.
The BBC's Frances Harrison in Tehran describes the conference as a roll call of the world's most infamous Holocaust deniers - all delighted that Iran has given them the oxygen of publicity.
'Unacceptable character'
In a number of European countries - including Germany, Austria and France - it is illegal to deny the Holocaust. An Austrian court jailed Briton David Irving for three years on charges of Holocaust denial.
CONFERENCE PARTICIPANTS
Australian Fredrick Toeben , jailed in Germany for incitement and insulting the memory of the dead
Frenchman Robert Faurisson , convicted in France under Holocaust denial laws
Frenchman Georges Thiel , convicted in France under Holocaust denial laws
American David Duke , a former KKK leader and white supremacist
At his monthly media briefing in London, UK Prime Minister Tony Blair called the Holocaust conference "shocking beyond belief".
He described Iran as a "major strategic threat" to the Middle East, saying: "Iran is deliberately causing maximum problems for moderate governments and for ourselves in the region - in Palestine, in Lebanon and in Iraq."
He added there was "little point" in including Iran and Syria in regional issues, such as Iraq, "unless they are prepared to be constructive" and that it would be a "major challenge" to deal with Iran.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel, flanked by visiting Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, said: "We reject in the strongest terms conferences held in Iran on the supposed non-existence of the Holocaust.
"Germany will never accept this and will use all possibilities at its disposal to oppose it."
Mr Olmert said the conference showed the "unacceptable character" of the Iranian government and the "danger" it poses for the West.
'Freedom of expression'
Opening the conference on Monday, Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki said the aim of the conference was "not to deny or confirm the Holocaust".
"Its main aim is to create an opportunity for thinkers who cannot express their views freely in Europe about the Holocaust," he said.
In a recorded address broadcast to the nation, President Ahmadinejad questioned why the West would not allow "any investigation" into the Holocaust.
Mr Ahmadinejad has repeatedly downplayed the extent of the Holocaust, describing it as a myth used to justify the existence of Israel and oppression of the Palestinians. He has called for an end to the Israeli state.
Many Iranians must be wondering why they have the right to deny the Holocaust with impunity, but not to question their own leaders without risking jail, our correspondent says.
In recent months, newspapers have been closed, journalists jailed and students penalised for engaging in any sort of political activity in Iran.
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/world/middle_east/6172807.stm
Published: 2006/12/12 16:09:11 GMT
� BBC MMVI |
Tvik, while you are perfectly right that countries must face up to the unpalatable facts ofb their past and their deeds in order to grow up and progress, using a highly debatable Holocaust conference is not the right way to go about getting the theme talked about. |
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Otterman Ollie
Joined: 23 Feb 2004
Posts: 1067
Location: South Western Turkey
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:52 am Post subject: |
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| Why is it when threads like this come along they only last for a short time so D.mb, Entrailcus, Baba and few hard core followers can back to what this forum is really for ,namely a chat board for , well I'll let you guess,shouldn't be too hard ,think of a word that begins with F. |
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Golightly
Joined: 08 Feb 2005
Posts: 877
Location: in the bar, next to the raki
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Otterman Ollie wrote: |
| Why is it when threads like this come along they only last for a short time so D.mb, Entrailcus, Baba and few hard core followers can back to what this forum is really for ,namely a chat board for , well I'll let you guess,shouldn't be too hard ,think of a word that begins with F. |
Fono English?
Foppery?
Flimflam?
Frottage? |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Golightly wrote: |
| Tvik, while you are perfectly right that countries must face up to the unpalatable facts ofb their past and their deeds in order to grow up and progress, using a highly debatable Holocaust conference is not the right way to go about getting the theme talked about. |
Isn't a "highly debatable" conference the best type of conference?
But, of course, it's not much of a conference when all of the participants turning up are going to be in full agreement with each other. |
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dmb
Joined: 12 Feb 2003
Posts: 8397
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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The thing that always amused me when teaching in the Gulf- the students tried to wind me up by saying Hitler, what a great man of course it didn't wind me up. I smiled smugly with the knowledge that they hadn't read Mein Kamf(neither have I) and Arabs were number 2 on the list after Jews.
How did I do Ollie? didn't mention the f word once. |
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Baba Alex
Joined: 17 Aug 2004
Posts: 2411
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| Posted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Otterman Ollie wrote: |
| Why is it when threads like this come along they only last for a short time so D.mb, Entrailcus, Baba and few hard core followers can back to what this forum is really for ,namely a chat board for , well I'll let you guess,shouldn't be too hard ,think of a word that begins with F. |
Last edited by Baba Alex on Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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tvik
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: here
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:36 am Post subject: |
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The conference is a joke of course. The people attending are extremists with an agenda. The reaction should be, as dmb mentioned, not to take it seriously when people look at a topic from an obviously inflammatory angle.
The new world way of dealing with problems is to talk them to death. The old world way is to ignore it and brush it under the carpet. each system has benefits in my view. |
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Otterman Ollie
Joined: 23 Feb 2004
Posts: 1067
Location: South Western Turkey
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:43 am Post subject: |
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D.m.b well done,keep it up ,B.A why are you such a forking a.hole?
Entrailcus, wrong thats exactly what THİS forum is for ,you have over 120 pages to prove that point,and how can you accuse me of trival and pointless posts ,hark at the kettle calling the pot black !
Now boys shall we carry on with this more interesting thread ? |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| tvik wrote: |
The conference is a joke of course. The people attending are extremists with an agenda. The reaction should be, as dmb mentioned, not to take it seriously when people look at a topic from an obviously inflammatory angle.
The new world way of dealing with problems is to talk them to death. The old world way is to ignore it and brush it under the carpet. each system has benefits in my view. |
Some would disagree with you:
http://www.slate.com/id/2155328/
An interesting question is why are there so many orthodox Jews attending the conference?
http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=12864
Also, here's one correspondent rubbishing the idea that this is Iran's contribution to free speech.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/6183061.stm
The point is that if "freedom of speech" means anything it is tolerance of views you may disagree with. Given that Iran's government is more likely to applaud rather than merely tolerate Holocaust denial it is hardly a case of freedom of speech in action.
There is a certain amount of hypocrisy in Europe however as the historian David Irving is sitting in jail in Austria for denying the Holocaust. I think it is important that people such as he are judged by their peers, namely historians. If his theories are trash they can be exposed as such. To throw this loony crank into jail only lends him a certain martyr status for other loony cranks. |
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furiousmilksheikali
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 1660
Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| tvik wrote: |
The conference was not set up to deny the holocause. The conference is happening because the israelis are killing palestinians in a way that borders on genocide and the Iranians want to show Israel as a country built on double standards.
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The conference was indeed set up to deny the Holocaust and thereby remove what they see as a central premise for the existence of the state of Israel.
We should be able to accept the Holocaust took place and agree that Israel is persecuting Palestinians at the same time. |
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tvik
Joined: 18 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: here
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| Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:39 am Post subject: |
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By comparison, the ancient Assyrians would have made Hitler look like good company for a tea party. Wars used to be about killing the maximum number of your enemy as possible. After WW2, in the west, wars became complicated efforts at trying to forcably change governments and killing the least ammount of people as possible.
Aside from the orthodox jews I just read, I haven't seen any press about what these people at the conference are actually saying. |
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