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MAstudent
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 27
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 Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:25 am Post subject: |
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Just to add:
Most of the time i can't stand being in the Kingdom (that's not something a fundamentalist conservative so and so would say), not because it's not Islamic enough or because its becoming too secular, rather because many things are just down right stupid (I�m not commenting about religious aspects)!
So what keeps me here?
1. I feel sorry for the Saudi students who have been let down by their educational system. Also they need to be taught how not to be so thick! 
2. The money is useful  |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Most of the time I find Saudi more than tolerable. It is the UKofGB&NI that I can't stand now !
Be wary of what may happen when you bind yourself to exile ! |
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Queen of Sheba
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397
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| Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| MAstudent wrote: |
Just to add:
Most of the time i can't stand being in the Kingdom (that's not something a fundamentalist conservative so and so would say), not because it's not Islamic enough or because its becoming too secular, rather because many things are just down right stupid (I�m not commenting about religious aspects)!
So what keeps me here?
1. I feel sorry for the Saudi students who have been let down by their educational system. Also they need to be taught how not to be so thick!
2. The money is useful |
1. Why feel sorry for an educational system developing in a developing country, things could be much worse. In addition, getting into their internal issues and politics will not help, it will only hinder an objective educating approach. Our values should be kept out of the work place, liberal, conservative or moderate. Or any mix thereof.
2. Money is useful, yes, that's why anybody works anywhere! |
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MAstudent
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 27
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:37 am Post subject: |
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QoS:
'1. Why feel sorry for an educational system developing in a developing country, things could be much worse.'
I don't know if I�d call it developing, especially in the public schools and universities! The Saudis have been let down by the government and all their changing initiatives. Also they have been mesmerized by people�s colors, nationalities, accents etc. They have put people in important places who are totally incompetent just based upon wasita's - all of this has lead to a Saudi generation of people who have no idea of how to think! When you try to make them think, the reply you get is: 'teacher my head hurts!' or 'teacher this is to hard!' or 'teacher this is too much!'
I'm sure there are times when you truly feel sorry for your students, esp when you see the cogs turning but their heads seem to be empty!
QoS: In addition, getting into their internal issues and politics will not help, it will only hinder an objective educating approach.
I agree with you here, that bringing your views into the classroom is incorrect. However debating it amongst academics (?), sharing ideas with others in the field and having a lively civilized argument with educated people is not a bad thing. Perhaps it will lead to some understanding of our students and the country in which we are now living.
Also, if the students want to debate/write on a political topic which interests them and they feel is important, then I don't see anything wrong with that, as long as the teacher remains impartial. Rather this is the point of a student centered approach. |
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Queen of Sheba
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| MAstudent wrote: |
QoS:
'1. Why feel sorry for an educational system developing in a developing country, things could be much worse.'
I don't know if I�d call it developing, especially in the public schools and universities! The Saudis have been let down by the government and all their changing initiatives. Also they have been mesmerized by people�s colors, nationalities, accents etc. They have put people in important places who are totally incompetent just based upon wasita's - all of this has lead to a Saudi generation of people who have no idea of how to think! When you try to make them think, the reply you get is: 'teacher my head hurts!' or 'teacher this is to hard!' or 'teacher this is too much!' |
Well the UNDP calls it developing, so what you say is just opinion, and highly debatable. Saudis feel let down by their government? I have yet to hear this from a Saudi, and since you are not one, its once again, an unsubstantiated opinion.
| MAstudent wrote: |
| I'm sure there are times when you truly feel sorry for your students, esp when you see the cogs turning but their heads seem to be empty! |
Yes, there certainly are, when teachers, and expats in general come here for money alone, and add judgement to the culture. |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| scot47 wrote: |
| Most of the time I find Saudi more than tolerable. It is the UKofGB&NI that I can't stand now ! |
Ah, Scot47, this shows that there is a problem between Gordon Brown and Tony Blair.
It seems the Scottishs want an independence from the UK of GB, NI, and Wales. 
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| Be wary of what may happen when you bind yourself to exile ! |
Scot, I did not know that your are in exile! |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Stephen Jones wrote: |
I thought there was universal male suffrage for the municipal elections in Saudi. There was little or no real debate though.
I suspect that the problem with youth, whether at university or unemployed or trying to drive taxis part time, is that they have little real interest in the elections, which they see as irrelevant. |
Of course, they see it as irrelevant. Because they know is not a real election, so why bother themselves for something which is a Mickey Mouse game.
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| The viewing figures for Tash-ma-Tash give a different view of Saudi society from that reflected in the article. And I didn't see any muttawa types getting very far in Arab pop idol |
There is no such a muttawa type as Arab pop idol.
The Tash-ma-tash film is popular in Saudi, because it reflects the real social, economic, and political life of Saudis. That's why the Mutawaas issued a Fatwa some years ago advising the Saudis not to watch the film, and they did not succeed to ban it because Tash-ma-Tash is backed by one of the big Saudi Amirs (5*). |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:38 am Post subject: |
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Cobra
The phoneys call themselves 'expats' or 'expatriates'. The truth is that we are exiles or emigres. Economic migrants. Gastarbeiter. |
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Queen of Sheba
Joined: 07 May 2006
Posts: 397
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| scot47 wrote: |
The phoneys call themselves 'expats' or 'expatriates'. The truth is that we are exiles or emigres. Economic migrants. Gastarbeiter. |
I realize you were talking to Cobra, but he won't mind if I interject. Some are not here as gastarbeiters, so I would be careful when you call people names like "phoney," some are here as expatriats, for example those who are on a spouse's iqama, not an employers.
I think those people who are "concerned" with the supposed fact that Saudis have been let down by their government are the real phoneys, since they cant get their own identities straight. They should take a good hard look at the problems with their own nations and their own ethicity, and figure out their identity crisis instead of deflecting it on Saudi. Just because Saudi is a Muslim nation in change, and they happen to be teaching ESL here, doesnt make them political analysts representative of the Saudi people, it does however make them ridiculous. |
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PeterBar
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Posts: 145
Location: La France profonde
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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QoS -
maybe, if Scot turned the other cheek you would see that he has got his tongue in it ! |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| That's why the Mutawaas issued a Fatwa some years ago advising the Saudis not to watch the film, and they did not succeed to ban it because Tash-ma-Tash is backed by one of the big Saudi Amirs (5*). |
As is usual in expat settings, the word 'mutuwwa' is being both overused and misused. Your common and garden 'mutawwa' has not attained the dizzy heights of fatwa-issuance powers. As I'm sure you know, only a relatively small number of clerics have the authority to issue fatwas. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:44 am Post subject: |
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| As I'm sure you know, only a relatively small number of clerics have the authority to issue fatwas. |
News to me. A fatwa is simply a legal opinion; just as any lawyer in the west has the right to issue a legal opinion, to the best of my knowledge any Moslem versed in fitr (law) has the same right. |
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Cleopatra
Joined: 28 Jun 2003
Posts: 3657
Location: Tuamago Archipelago
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| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| A fatwa is simply a legal opinion; just as any lawyer in the west has the right to issue a legal opinion, to the best of my knowledge any Moslem versed in fitr (law) has the same right. |
From everything I've heard or read, only certain scholars/clerics have the right to issue fatwas. Not just any 'mutawwa' (however that be so defined) has the authority to do so. I was discussing this subject with my students just the other day. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003
Posts: 4124
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| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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Everybbody can't issue a legal opinion in the US or the UK. You have to be a lawyer, and have studied.
Same thing with the 'fatwas'. And of course your students would be contradcting themselves; if not everybody is allowed to issue a 'fatwa' they would not be allowed to issue the 'fatwa' that not everybody can issue one!
'Fatwa', like 'jihad' is one of those words that has gained overtones divorced from the original meaning. |
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007
Joined: 30 Oct 2006
Posts: 2684
Location: UK/Veteran of the Magic Kingdom
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| Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Cleopatra wrote: |
| Quote: |
| A fatwa is simply a legal opinion; just as any lawyer in the west has the right to issue a legal opinion, to the best of my knowledge any Moslem versed in fitr (law) has the same right. |
From everything I've heard or read, only certain scholars/clerics have the right to issue fatwas. Not just any 'mutawwa' (however that be so defined) has the authority to do so. I was discussing this subject with my students just the other day. |
In Islam the Fatwa is not restricted to a particular person, or any Imam which is appointed by the governemnt.
In Islam thereis no such a Pope, any Moslem who has the deep knowldge of the Quran and Sharia, especially if he obtained his knowledge from Very well known Cheikh, then he can give his opinion on Islamic matter.
By the way, most of the Saudi Students are not knowledgeable about Islamic Fiqh, and also the majority of the Moslems do not listen to the Imams which are appointed by the Saudi Governement or any other Islamic government, because they know, as I know, the Fatwa in this case will be influenced by political agenda or any other agenda for a specific Madham (Islamic teaching or Islamic Ideology of a specific country). That's why Bin landen is popular amongst the young Saudis!! |
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