Job Discussion Forums

flapjack · Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:59 am Post subject:

Hi Clark,

Iit's odd that you may see what I lasted posted as taking some kind of tone. Perhaps that's just the way your mind works as you can't see anyone else's point of view but your own.

I do see this as an adult conversation but I think your rambling around in cicrles is just the kind of thing that keeps the status quo aflame.

clark.w.griswald · Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2056

I am not sure how this thread has ended up where it is.

My original comments were made in response to what I saw as being a point of view that I didn't agree with. Perhaps I misinterpreted the initial point of view but this is what I believe was being expressed:

That the Taiwan government needs to pay more if they want to secure the types of qualified teachers that the government wants to bring western educational reforms to the English component of education in Taiwan.

Assuming this to be the case then let me reiterate my points:

1. I don't believe that the aim of the 'foreign teachers in government schools' program has ever been anything more than an effort to get the students more accustomed to foreigners and the English language. I have never seen anything in any of the information that I have read about the program that suggested that the aim was education reform in favor of western teaching techniques but I welcome someone to point these out to me if they believe that this was indeed the governments aim.

2. I believe that local teachers are best suited to teaching English in the government school system under the current system which is test based. I don't agree that a foreign teacher unfamiliar with Taiwan can do a better job of ensuring that the students pass exams, and whether we like it or not that is the aim of students, parents, teachers, and the education system in Taiwan.

3. I believe that the value of foreign teachers in teaching English is in oral practice, and as I initially overlooked but have since conceded, in teaching writing. Unfortunately, in the context of the government school system with its emphasis on passing exams, speaking and writing generally take a back seat to grammar and vocabulary. This raises a question in my mind as to the value of foreign teachers in the government school system in regards to students achieving their objectives in passiing exams.

4. I think that the overall level of students English (speaking, reading, and writing) in Taiwan is not very good, but I believe that it is likely comparable to other similar countries such as Korea, China, and Japan. Each of these countries have a similar emphasis on passing exams rather than becoming proficient in the language. The simple fact is that students don't need to be proficient in English in Taiwan, and any students who have a particular interest in learning the language can invest in classes after school. I don't see why all students in Taiwan should be forced to try to become proficient in a language that they quite reaosnably may never need to use.

5. I don't believe that foreign teachers within the program would ever be paid the NTD120,000 or whatever the figure was that was suggested, for a number of reasons. This is regardless of whether these foreign teachers can earn that back home or in other countries or not.

I understand that some may agree with these views above, but I don't think that this makes either of us wrong. If you would like to discuss the matter further then I would be happy to give my two cents (and a bit more) but I am not going to get involved in a battle over this.

TravellingAround · Joined: 12 Nov 2006 Posts: 423

I didn't think there was any kind of battle really, it was just a discussion to my mind. An interesting subject.

TravellingAround · Joined: 12 Nov 2006 Posts: 423

flapjack · Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:50 am Post subject:

Sorry if I got off on the wrong foot Clark.
Point 1.
I can agree with.

Point 2.
I can't agree. Sure the system is test based but that doesn't mean it needs to be done the Taiwanese way. In fact that's it's biggest drawback.
If they really want to ensure that public school kids with no Buxiban training pass any tests they seriously need to make a change towards allowing experienced western teachers help them towards that goal instead of insisting that they know what's best.

Point 3.
What you beleive to be true is not necessarily so in reality. Those students need a comprehense English course taught by foreigners with experience in Taiwan. They are desperately in need of Reading , Writing and Speaking skills combined, by the foreign teacher and backed up by the local teachers. Building confidence from first grade through 6th grade in all these areas by a foreign teacher would go a long way towards students passing exams. It's for this reason I have the feeling that you might not have ever taught in an a TW public school. It all seems so clear to me.

Point 4.
This really burns me. How could you say that just because they may never use it they can just learn it after school in a Buxiban. It's not like English is comparable to let's say Javanese on the world stage. English is used globally for business and travel, perhaps for the few who end up in service and vocational jobs it's not so important. But Taiwan wants to move forward on the world stage as an international community and I beleive they are right in doing so. Just becasue they are in the early stages of doing so doesn't mean they should just continue in paying lip service to their desires.

Actually, whether they use English during their lifetime or not is a bit immaterial. I see learning any foreign language whether used or not as a huge building block to the human mind and it's education and condition.

Point 5.
Well they may at one point be paid that much if Taiwan wakes up and smells the coffee. I think the person who was writing the ideas for a program that envisions a future for TW on the world stage as a first world country is on the right track. It may take some time to get there but they have the right idea.

As far as battling, I have yet begun to fight.
cheers and sorry for disregarding your ideas but they seemed very realistic and a little negative about foreign teachers.
What we need at this point for TW is idealism and positvie thinking.

Sincerely,

Flapjack

clark.w.griswald · Joined: 06 Dec 2004 Posts: 2056

flapjack · Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 8:16 am Post subject:

OK,
Well, I have said what I wanted to say on this topic. It's an interesting gordian knot but I have said my peice.
Take care all.
Flapjack

trukesehammer · Joined: 25 Mar 2003 Posts: 168 Location: The Vatican

Yeah, it's great to have native speakers in the public schools but whenever the government gets involved, especially here in Taiwan, it rapidly and inevitably deteriorates into something stupid.

Better to just encourage schools to hire native speakers and let the principals take it from there, unless, of course, the principal is a putz, which begs the question of how s/he got to be principal in the first place.

...Then again, maybe that's a job requirement, as every single principal I've ever met was a world-class putz. Rolling Eyes

Xenophobe · Joined: 11 Nov 2003 Posts: 163

The program was a failure. I was part of it in February '05 and from the get go I realized that very little if any thought went into the program. I was a teacher and a principal at home, yet I was told that I wasn't qualified to teach grammar or spelling to the Taiwanese students. That was to be the job of their 'English' teacher, while I was merely the 'Conversation' teacher. My contact time was approximately 35 minutes a week with each class of 35 students.

Initially I had no teaching materials except for a pair of scissors, a roll of tape and two magazines. Eventually we had a monthly magazine, but this was not until the second month and where we were placed, didn't have any access to any english teaching materials, unless you wanted to fly to Taipei or take a 10 hour ferry ride.

In the end, the success of this program can be measured by the number of teachers that re-signed their contracts after that first year.

flapjack · Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:16 pm Post subject:

Sorry to hear about that Xeno,
It's a pretty tough walk and I have not finished my first year. The first semester is nearly over and I have convinced the principle and my supervisor that the students really need a phonics program (from 1st to 6th grade) to boost confidence in their speaking ability. It's was so weird just going into a classroom and trying to get everyone to just open up and have conversations based on a locally produced English book.

Through assessing their abilities I found that they were lacking in oral reading ability. So I have devised a program based on the "Hooked on Phonics" series as a means to get them speaking. I figure 15 minutes on phonics, 15 minutes on speaking based on the phonics, then 10 minutes of oral reading.

I figure it will take a few years before the students start to show a great deal of measurable progress with this method but it's my way of getting around the "Conversation ONLY" clause for foreign teachers. In my opinion I beleive the students will fare much better with their speaking abilities if they can read aloud. Most of my six graders can't read very well, only the ones who have spent 4 years in a Private school are doing well. Why? Because in private schools teachers, teach reading,phonics, conversation and writing from the kinder on up.

It's a hard row to hoe. But the powers that be at my school are starting to see the logic of my approach and I applaud them for it.

I hope you have a great job going for you now. It's important that one feels comfortable with their work. If you can add any insights you may have I would very much appreciate it.
Best wishes and thanks for your post.
Flapjack.