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Venti

Joined: 19 Oct 2006 Posts: 171 Location: Kanto, Japan
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Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| White_Elephant wrote: |
| Venti wrote: |
Uh-oh,
Somebody has diarrhea of the keyboard and a constipation of any real ideas.
Who piss#d in your pool, rdix? |
rdix made some valid points. What is your point? |
| White_Elephant wrote: |
I've got news for you, I've stared death in the face a few times. I've been shot at a few times and I had robbers hold me up with guns pointed in my face. You could say I've cheated death. |
Let me take the low road here, Elephant. Are you always this full of it? |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 1337 Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| zorro (2) wrote: |
There are enough people who teach ESL who consider it to be a profession or a valued career, yet still there is the awkardness of telling people that you teach ESL. How many of you feel uncomfortable in divulging this? How many of you are proud of this fact? I'm not talking about your qualifications here. I'm proud of mine too. I mean, for example, in a situation where there is an economics professor, a teacher of English Lit., a doctor (although I am aware of the cliche of this example) or a sales manager. I know this is a question of status as well, but my point is that ESL teaching is largely considered to be a 'gap fill' or an 'I'm not sure what I'm going to do with my life' activity.
I have to go to bed now, but I have plenty more to say on this if anyone is interested.
BRING PRIDE TO ESL!!! |
Here's another way to look at it. How is teaching English as a foreign language different from teaching, say, Spanish as a foreign language? |
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Justin Trullinger

Joined: 28 Jan 2005 Posts: 3110 Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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Posted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| How is teaching English as a foreign language different from teaching, say, Spanish as a foreign language? |
I've done both. And I'd say the grammar is quite a bit different. Spelling too. And at least with English, you don't get tangled up in all the d@mn subjunctives...
Oh, if you were serious: The act of teaching probably is pretty similar. But the worldwide demand for English makes this one of the worlds most nomadic professions. I work for an organisation that has a full time ENglish teaching staff of 15-25, depending on the time of year. And between us, we've lived in a couple of dozen countries, and speak close to a dozen languages well.
Most people who teach Spanish, or most other languages, do so in one country only. EFL abroad is virtually the only teaching sub-area where a career that spans 5 or 6 countries is fairly commonplace.
As a group, we're probably the most international educational professionals ever.
Also, people learn Spanish to speak to Spanish speakers; French to speak to French speakers, and so on, for the most part.
English is the only language that has more non-native than native speakers. It gives it a different place in the world, as it no longer really belongs to us who teach it.
I am NOT saying that English is better than other languages, or that we are better than other teachers. But it IS a uniquely international language-unique, probably in the history of the world. And its internationalism is one of the things that makes it exciting for me to teach.
In what other field could I interact with so many other languages, cultures, people, and countries?
Best,
Justin |
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White_Elephant

Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 175
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| Venti wrote: |
| White_Elephant wrote: |
| Venti wrote: |
Uh-oh,
Somebody has diarrhea of the keyboard and a constipation of any real ideas.
Who piss#d in your pool, rdix? |
rdix made some valid points. What is your point? |
| White_Elephant wrote: |
I've got news for you, I've stared death in the face a few times. I've been shot at a few times and I had robbers hold me up with guns pointed in my face. You could say I've cheated death. |
Let me take the low road here, Elephant. Are you always this full of it? |
Who let romper room out? I swear the moderators should have an age restriction for posters on here. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| But it IS a uniquely international language-unique, probably in the history of the world. |
More so than Latin? The geographical spread is wider, but that is the result of technology. |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| But it IS a uniquely international language-unique, probably in the history of the world. |
More so than Latin? The geographical spread is wider, but that is the result of technology. |
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eha
Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 355 Location: ME
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 3:00 pm Post subject: EFL as a profession |
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To get back to the question of what constitutes a 'profession': most definitions of the latter refer to an 'ethical code'. While I've been 'professing' to Tefl, I've seen some behaviour on the part of other 'professors' that -- well, to put it mildly, would violate the ethical code of Uriah Heep. I'm told it's all because so many of the good 'Tefling' jobs involve pleasing the employer at all costs-- an employer whose own grasp of ethics may not be his most highly-developed quality. So teachers have to shut up and put up: while under pressure to produce 'feedback', at the same time, make sure it's empty rhetoric. Never, ever suggest any real criticism of the existing system, especially administrative systems; and above all, never support a colleague who may fall foul of the inbuilt injustices involved in such systems. I've listened to, and watched the consequences of, this kind of thing for the two decades I've been Tefling-- it could all be summed up as: sod you Jack; I'm all right.
Doesn't impress me much as an ethical code.
Or am I just talking about a particular geographical code? |
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Justin Trullinger

Joined: 28 Jan 2005 Posts: 3110 Location: Seoul, South Korea and Myanmar for a bit
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Posted: Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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I guess I would say that the prevalence of English now is greater than that of Latin in Roman times, Steven.
Obviously, this is largely due to technology, and ease of international travel plays a big role as well.
So does the importance of global commerce, which was, to say the least, a lot less efficient and more localised in Roman times.
Understand, I'm not making any imperialist/superiority arguments here. But I think it's fair to say that English is much more international than Latin ever was.
It's reached every corner of the globe, whereas Latin was mostly limited to the mediterranean, Europe, and bits of Africa and western Asia. But the increased spread is not just geographical. The raw number of speakers is much greater than Latin ever reached. It's also the first major language spoken by more non-natives than natives. (Which helps us stay in work!)
Best,
Justin |
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Stephen Jones
Joined: 21 Feb 2003 Posts: 4124
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Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:51 am Post subject: |
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It's also the first major language spoken by more non-natives than natives. (Which helps us stay in work!)
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The same was probably true of French until the second world war.
For international spread, how about Portugese creole, or pidgin? |
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JZer
Joined: 16 Jan 2005 Posts: 3898 Location: Pittsburgh
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Posted: Mon Dec 25, 2006 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| The same was probably true of French until the second world war. |
I am not so sure about that. I have no stats to back it up but spoken french was quite limited. One reason was that until recently, mass education was not the case. Most people did not attend universities. Of course most European intellectuals spoke French before the Second World War but that was a small percentage of the population compared to today when in countries like Malaysia or Sweden, every high school grad can speak English. |
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Chancellor
Joined: 31 Oct 2005 Posts: 1337 Location: Ji'an, China - if you're willing to send me cigars, I accept donations :)
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Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Justin Trullinger wrote: |
| Quote: |
| How is teaching English as a foreign language different from teaching, say, Spanish as a foreign language? |
I've done both. And I'd say the grammar is quite a bit different. Spelling too. And at least with English, you don't get tangled up in all the d@mn subjunctives...
Oh, if you were serious: The act of teaching probably is pretty similar. But the worldwide demand for English makes this one of the worlds most nomadic professions. I work for an organisation that has a full time ENglish teaching staff of 15-25, depending on the time of year. And between us, we've lived in a couple of dozen countries, and speak close to a dozen languages well.
Most people who teach Spanish, or most other languages, do so in one country only. EFL abroad is virtually the only teaching sub-area where a career that spans 5 or 6 countries is fairly commonplace.
As a group, we're probably the most international educational professionals ever.
Also, people learn Spanish to speak to Spanish speakers; French to speak to French speakers, and so on, for the most part.
English is the only language that has more non-native than native speakers. It gives it a different place in the world, as it no longer really belongs to us who teach it.
I am NOT saying that English is better than other languages, or that we are better than other teachers. But it IS a uniquely international language-unique, probably in the history of the world. And its internationalism is one of the things that makes it exciting for me to teach.
In what other field could I interact with so many other languages, cultures, people, and countries?
Best,
Justin |
Of course I was serious! Several here were suggesting that those who teach English as a foreign language aren't REAL teachers. So, what I want to know from such people is how teaching English as a foreign language is somehow so terribly different from teaching, say, Spanish as a foreign language that those who teach English can't be considered real teachers but those who teach some other language can. |
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John Hall

Joined: 16 Mar 2004 Posts: 452 Location: San Jose, Costa Rica
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject: The Freelance/University Route |
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Nobody has said much here about the route that I have taken. Mind you, I have done all kinds of things wrong, but I am still surviving!
I started out in Japan teaching at conversation schools and then got into company classes there. Then I came to Costa Rica, where I did company classes for many years. While in CR, I fell madly in love with a Costa Rican woman with four teenaged and adult children. We got married and then she lost her full-employment status, which she has never been able to regain. Yikes! And then it got worse! The oldest daughter got pregnant and the new father and baby had to move in with us as well.
But fortunately, I had made many contacts within the local business community, and since I had become a legal resident of CR through marriage, I was now able to work directly for a Costa Rican employer as the "company English teacher." I was originally hired full-time with health insurance and "thirteenth month pay" paid out in December. That only lasted six months though. The company restructured themselves, and I "lost my job, but not my work": that is, I kept teaching the classes, but only under a professional services contract that excluded benefits. I continued in this way for a while, just barely making ends meet. But Christmas time was just too difficult for my family and I: I had to use my Canadian credit card to get through to the first pay check at the end of January.
Eventually, I picked up a full-time, but low-paying job at a private university. I also kept some of the company classes. The university job I do for the benefits; the company classes for the cash. I still just make ends meet, but I have a (mortgage on a) house, and a loving family to take care of me in my old age.
My plan is to go into the business of doing company classes here in Costa Rica. I do not have the money to start up a business, but there is a more old-fashioned way to get into business: do a really good job, develop a good reputation for your high level of professionalism, and then land a contract and hire only the best local teachers. I am in the process of doing that right now.
It used to be that there was security in working for one company all of your life. Not so any more. Even governments go through restructuring now; not much security there either. For me, the only future is to get into the business itself; there only seems to be security these days in a strong market. Costa Rica has a new multinational corporation setting up business here, it seems, almost every week. Many of them are establishing international call centers here. The local population will need "perfect English" for years to come. And this is wherein my future lies, I believe. I will only keep the university job until my company is profitable enough.
Go into the TESL business itself; that is where you will find financial security in the future in this profession. |
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White_Elephant

Joined: 02 Sep 2006 Posts: 175
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Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| Go into the TESL business itself; that is where you will find financial security in the future in this profession. |
Yep, I'd have to agree with this and add a few of my own thoughts. First, if you are out there boozing it up at pubs every night living paycheck to paycheck as a TEFLer you will end up in the end a bitter and broke loser. Second, there's too many alcoholics in this business who give the rest of us (true educators) a bad name. Sometimes I have to prove that I'm not like them. It doesn't take me long, but in the back of my mind I hold resentment. What separates us are the ones who see a future in TEFL and those who USE TEFL as a means to find their fix. Those of us who see a future in TEFL think years down the line of starting a business, becoming a DOS or a full-time Professor at a respectable university. |
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furiousmilksheikali

Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 1660 Location: In a coffee shop, splitting a 30,000 yen tab with Sekiguchi.
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Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| White Elephant! Will you lend me a fiver till payday? It's my round and I'm down to a few pieces of shrapnell. Go on you know I'm good for the cash... |
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supervisor133
Joined: 24 Oct 2006 Posts: 35 Location: Australia
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Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 10:44 am Post subject: |
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[quote="White_Elephant"]
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| Those of us who see a future in TEFL think years down the line of starting a business, becoming a DOS or a full-time Professor at a respectable university. |
I disagree with your assessment of what those that see a future in TEFL aspire to. Perhaps the final option, yes, but certainly being a DOS holds zero interest for me. It's a business/admin role, not a teaching role. I'm a teacher that likes being able to try out new things in the classroom. Thus it would be my ultimate nightmare to be in the education industry but not actually have access to students in a meaningful way.
Yes, the party teachers give "professionals" a bad name. But I started out as a party teacher before realising that it was the career most suited for me. These days, those that don't take their job seriously I have little to no time for and that's the way I like it, as I'm sure you do too.
Regarding the future of the industry? I think it will become more competitive over the next 10 years. Something I realised early on and began qualifying myself for. That said, I think there will be jobs out there, but the expectation for quality will be higher which doesn't bother me in the slightest. |
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