Job Discussion Forums

[samizinha]

I hear the ads on the radio all the time... "En un a�o, eres biling�e".
Has anybody ever seen the results of a program that makes these claims? Do you believe it's possible to become bilingual in one year of intensely studying English? Do you consider being bilingual the same as being fluent in a language?
I've got decent Spanish skills, can speak, read and write, but I have lived here for a while, studied, and have been immersed in the country. I don't think a school could have prepared me with a year of classes, but maybe I'm just a little dim in the language department .

[MikeySaid]

Seems to me that bilingual--like fluent--is a word that is defined by the individual.

Often enough someone will say they speak Spanish or Italian or another language, and they really have an EXTREMELY limited command of the language. I've noticed that those who speak really well in a second language tend to play it down or understate their abilities.

With the term "bilingual", I don't think the company is claiming to give someone native-like fluency in one calendar year. I also don't think that learning to speak a language with what ACTFL calls 'intermediate high' capabilities would be impossible. It would require diligence, time, and a certain amount of knack for language learning. Youth and intelligence might not hurt, either.

[Guy Courchesne]

I think a lot of those radio and tv ads are geared towards the job market, in DF at least, targeting the 20-30 age group. 'Bilingual' as a term, without really getting into the particulars, looks good on the resume as is.

Job ads I've seen here for Mexicans often ask for a certain percentage of English ability, sometimes expressed as '80% ingles' or '90% biling�e'.

[mapache]

Even at the best private schools or with private lessons, 18 months is about the time it takes to become fluid in English here. TOEFL preparation may take another 3 - 6 months depending on how hard the student studies or applies himself or herself.

[TheLongWayHome]

[ls650]

It's funny how much the ability to acquire language can vary from one person to another. I have students who seem to soak up language like a sponge, yet others who seem to be as dense as rock. (I tend to learn towards the latter category myself when it comes to learning Spanish.)

[PlayadelSoul]

How do we define bilingual? Is it the ability to comprehend and effictively communicate? If so, then I would say a year is about right.

[MELEE]

I also think it totally depends on how much time one is willing to dedicate during that year. It takes my students much more than a year to be "bilingual" but they dedicate 5 to 8 hours a week to learning English, most being on the low end of that scale. If some one were make language learning their principal activity than, yes, a year seems reasonable. Think about teenagers who do high school exchanges. But learning the language they are immersed in is their principal activity. They spend most of their waking hours at it. In a non immersion situation, I would expect a person to be willing to dedicate at least 15 hours a week if they want to see noticable progress. If you were going for fluency in a year, more like 30 hours a week. I've never worked at a language institute in Mexico, so I have no idea how many hours a week they schedule the students for, nor how much outside of class studying the students do.

[MikeySaid]

From http://www.acfnewsource.org/general/language_institute.html

[hlamb]

My school has a two year program, a bit more for younger students. At the end, they do a final presentation, which is mostly oral, on a subject of their choice. Students who pass have a very high level of English, and the school does fail those who need more time to develop their English. They study at least five hours a week, but have the opportunity to be in class for more hours at no extra charge. Those who do well spend a lot of time studying and practicing outside of class. When they do graduate, they have demonstrated very good English.

Last year I worked at a language school that gave the students a SEP type of bilingual certificate after a certain number of class hours, which were usually spread over three or more years. As the teacher, I was never asked to evaluate my students and was not allowed to fail them for any reason. Consequently that certificate meant nothing.

Different schools and different teaching methods, with vastly different results. A lot also depends on the students.

[Patrocleides]

I work for a "100% bilingual" business concern. The graduates of commercial programs, no matter how many thousands of pesos their pockets have been picked for, plainly can't meet the "90% bilingual" entry requirement. Teachers who are not native speakers and have no extensive experience are dubious prospects at best.

If it is to operate efficiently, even operate at all, the enterprise has to rely largely on Mexicans returning from the United States. Like other bilingual offices and industries it's not going to open a "language school" and it's obviously not going to waste its time trying to upgrade candidates waving their local school "bilingual" credentials to the required standards of office English. Nobody takes those "bilingual" claims on CVs in the least seriously. After a few experiences, business usually pack in any arrangements with schools as not worth the time or cash.

To paraphrase Kissinger: Ninety percent of the English programs in Guadalajara give the rest a bad name. Teaching English as a working language deserves far more that these schools can or will provide.

[Patrocleides]

"...far more that these schools can or will provide."

Business deals usually with people who have to work in two languages. The errors they make usually reflect the relationship between those two languages and are not usually treated by those wearisome "one size fits all" TEFL packages. Teachers who are not native speakers of English don't notice the "Espanglish" with which they are handicapping their students but business certainly does. Clients complain about accents, get confused by responses not typically English and unnecessarily cost a business time, work, and cash. Students taught English to a large extent by Spanish-speaking teachers in Spanish as the chief language of instruction are just not often employable whatever the delusions of local EFL teachers or the deceitful presentations of commercial schools.

As I move between languages I notice the frequency with which my casual typos (than/that) start to reflect aspects of the "discordant" usages of Spanish and English, in this instance, "que." Native English speakers with a weak grasp of Spanish or none at all and native speakers of Spanish who claim to teach English just seem to have no comprehensive or in-depth mastery of just how this sort of unwelcome "Espanglish" error gets generated or how to systematically correct it. It's this kind of ludicrous and costly English that has to be weeded out before "bilinguals" can even hope to make a reasonable written presentation or carry on an effective telephone conversation. Schools are typically no help at all. If anything they leave a legacy of problems which only exposure to real English (or Spanish) can correct.

Teaching English as an occupational skill seems to require a bit more than "teachers" are willing or able to provide. Much of the problem lies with the schools themselves. Salaries, materials, and facilities are overhead and overhead is to be cut. As long as the damage done by those cuts can be covered up by advertising and false front appearances, then the profit motive will be pursued as hard as the school owners can manage. They will hire teachers with weaker qualifications because they can pay them less, buy "books" for cost, not competence, neglect libraries and computer facilities claiming that students would "steal" the books or go to "inappropriate" sites. They'll peddle "bilingual" claims but not invest anything in the infrastructure which might actually move students closer to useful English skills. As they say, "No transas, no avansas." If the sizzle sells, why give 'em steak?

[Ben Round de Bloc]

[Guy Courchesne]

I can more or less agree that there are serious problems and failures in many of the large, organized 'business English' classes. Many a company runs the gamut of this school to that one, and on to the next, until they get fed up and stop funding the adventure altogether. I think Patrocleides has identified a number of the key issues as to why such failures occur, but some important features are missing...student and company expectations and the ability to get to class.

I am sure many others on this forum have experienced this...the new student who is very gung-ho to learn, eyes wide, and nothing but 'yes, yes, yes, teacher I must study very hard...many hours a day!'. Companies, or to be more precise, someone in charge, is the same. 'I need everybody speaking English, now'. You start classes, time passes, and what happens? Students start wavering...'can't come to class - have a big project'. 'Oh, class is canceled all next week while we're in Acapulco for a staff party.' 'My homework? Oh I had so much work, I couldn't do it...' Two, maybe three months on, and the class evaporates - not canceled, not simply gone...it evaporates.

The language schools selling packages to companies often aren't really selling anything different by way of a program (off the shelf EFL program, same as the rest). They are selling convenience (we'll send a teacher to you). The cost of that convenience is to take responsibility out of the students' hands for the simple act of getting to class. That, and of course, I'd say that most of the companies have unrealistic expectations as to how classes can be knit into the corporate schedule and how students/employees can add that much more to what is usually a 10-12 hour day already.

I don't know if I can agree with bilingual employees largely being returnees from the US, at least not in my experience in Mexico City. Many of the top level people travel around the world and aren't the types who really worry about US visas and such. Many studied in the US or Europe because they had the opportunity to do so and those that didn't study abroad went to the top schools here. Mid-level folk who didn't have those opportunities seem to have muddled through to an intermediate level of English and stopped there, often having bounced from language school to language school. These are the people most pressured to increase their English proficiency, and unfortunately, the least able to do so based on time considerations.

I guess my point here is to somewhat agree with you Patrocleides, but let's not forget that learning is ultimately the responsibility of the student. No matter the resources a school or teacher pours into the classroom, if the student isn't coming to class or doing the work, they won't learn.

[MELEE]