Job Discussion Forums

[gallery79]

i have to agree with mark on this. the japanese education system is awesome at producing mathematicians and scientists and strategic businessmen because most everything is based on the read, memorize, memorize, memorize, exam formula. great at remembering equations, the tactics of sun tzu, formulas, and such, but totally ignores most brain functions involved with language acquisition. the one exception is that most high school level students know more english grammar than most uni grads from english speaking countries. the major problem is that the idea of change is a big taboo in japan. upgrade, ok, but a full change, lalalala not listening. in most countries the best way to implement change is to start from the bottom, the root; get the elementary schools teaching languages properly. in japan, though, the root is at the top, with the uni entrance exams, which focuses on the student's ability to answer written grammar questions. if they had a strong oral part then the high schools would be forced to prep for that, then the junior highs would have to follow suit to prep the kids for high school, and on down the line.
another big problem is in the basic ability to form the sounds. think about the japanese language that the muscle memory of their mouths are conditioned to; consonant-vowel-consonant-vowel-etc. double consonants are practically unheard of (the only exception is that /n/ can be followed by a consonant). i'm currently trying to learn polish, and i find the whole shchz combinations difficult, but most of the other sounds are found in english, so i can deal. i can't imagine trying to take on a language where 70% of the sound formations are foreign to me. don't look for me learning swazi any time soon.

frisian??? what about pig latin?

[Glenski]

[taikibansei]

[shuize]

[Mark]

I think it's important to remember that established systems tend to try to sustain themselves. So, the established English system is trying to sustain itself.

Everybody knows how it works and what they have to do. At my school, the teachers are petrified of anything new, and they don't want to be put in a position where they have to do something they don't really know how to do.

It's sad, but I do believe that things will change. The main reason is that Japan's Asian rivals are changing and improving, and Japan will have to follow course eventually. Once the average Korean (or especially the average Chinese mainlander) speaks far better English than the average Japanese, I think that Japan will react.

Now, Korea/Taiwan/China all have the same educational problems as Japan to some degree, but those other countries are working at it and trying to fix the problem with their English systems.

When I was teaching ESL in Canada, I had many Korean English teachers as students. Not once did I ever have a Japanese English teacher. I think that in itself says quite a bit.

[GambateBingBangBOOM]

Japanese teachers generally can't leave to go learn English in another country because 1. It would put their life-long employment guarantee in jeopardy and 2. It would be admitting that they don't speak perfect English. Everybody knows that they don't speak perfect English but they just ignore it so long as it doesn't rock the boat (ie the students don't actually matter).

Japanese people trying to become English teachers do go overseas, though. I know a few JTEs who went to Canada or the States, but it was before they actually got jobs as English teachers in Japan so they don't call themselves teachers. They often come back with pretty good English which then gets better in their first couple of years teaching and then after the apathy sets in (they have no incentive to do any better, they get raises based on their age, they get promotions based on their paperwork ability and the number of clubs they coach) their English level will drop steadily.

[Zzonkmiles]

Another issue seems to be that the Japanese tend to view language learning as a hobby, rather than as a useful skill. Think of the NOVA/GEOS/AEON crowd.

"Why do you study English?"

"I want to foreign boyfriend."
"I want to watching English movies."
"I favorite TV is Will and Grace."
"I want haafu baby."
"My job is English. (Translation: My boss/company is making me take English lessons even though I don't want to.)"

And the standard eikaiwa business model is focused more on having fun with using a foreign language than actual language learning. This is why qualified or trained EFL teachers don't tend to last long at places like NOVA.

While I could never say that EVERYONE in any society thinks a certain way, I'm inclined to think that people in EU countries (and probably other countries in general) think of English as a useful skill for getting a job, international communication, etc., rather than a means by which they can watch foreign movies. And taking one lesson a week at the local eikaiwa is not how you're going to become fluent, since language study requires intense work every day.

Katakana also complicates matters because some katakana words are unrelated to English, but students tend to use those words in English conversation, such as "baito" or "anketto." It also alters their pronunciation.

[supervisor133]

[Mark]

[c-way]

Wow, I don't start many threads, so it's nice that this one seems to be a hot topic. I think most of the posters have hit on some very good reasons and explained themselves very well. I myself didn't posit any ideas because I wanted to leave it open to all of you, then compile the ideas thrown out into a running list (I realize that some may find lists useless and uninteresting, but I'm just trying to summarize your ideas, forgive the subjectivity). Looking at the responses, I see, in no particular order:

1. Similarity between a Student's L1 and L2 (English).

2. Reason for studying (hobby v. job skill).

3. The Japanese education system (methodology, written, grammar focus, etc.).

4. Japanese English teachers (poor language ability themselves, promotion of the idea that English is too difficult, etc.)

5. Reluctance to change, top-down approach to change (this could be part of 3 I suppose).

6. Student motivation ("the Dutch care")

7. Usefulness of the language to students (The Japanese don't need it)

8. Exposure (English on TV, music, etc.)

9. Opportunity to use English (I distinguish this from 7 bc/ needing to use English and wanting to use English are not the same).

OK, I'll stop there before I get too redundant. Most of you will not agree with my list and that's ok. I also couldn't review the first 8 post so I might have neglected an idea or two.

What I'd like to ask posters now, aside from any other new ideas why the Japanese don't measure up to the Dutch, is which of these factors have the biggest impact on Japanese Students difficulty learning language. Is it the school system, the teachers, the lack of need, or what. Listing the factors in descending order might be one way to go, but please feel free.

I'm not asking this simply to amuse myself, I ultimately would like to hear your ideas on what we, the Native English teacher, can do to address some of the biggest constraints to our job.

Thanks again for your constructive posts.

[Brooks]

in Holland, university instruction is in English.
So that explains why the Dutch do well at English.
After the Dutch, I`d say the Danes speak almost as well.

[Zzonkmiles]

Yet another issue to keep in mind is Japanese culture regarding the classroom. In Western countries, it is common for students to ask the teacher questions if they don't understand something or need clarification on something. In fact, students are expected to, and almost encouraged to, ask questions daily. In Japanese classrooms, however, students are generally not supposed to ask questions because doing so makes it seem like the student is the one to blame for not understanding everything.

There's also the issue of losing face. This is a big no-no in Japanese society, so Japanese students do not want to embarrass themselves by asking a "stupid" question or being reprimanded by a teacher for being "disruptive."

Some of my students are finally getting into the habit of asking me questions in my lessons. I'm not talking about them asking me to repeat something. I'm talking about them asking why things are structured the way they are. When they ask me these types of questions, I thank them for asking and encourage them to ask me some more.

[J.]

All the posts and the list have been very interesting because this is an issue I've been concerned about too. I think that it would be rather unfair to expect that everyone leaving high school without taking any extra lessons will be able to speak. Most of the students I have coached can speak a little, which is surprising given the poor emphasis on speaking in the classroom, which leads me to believe that school students are for the most part pretty competent learners.

For those learning as adults or as students in extra lessons, perhaps the lack of cohesive and effective teaching curricula and teachers is a factor. It's not all down to bad Japanese English teachers. I myself have been struggling and experimenting and trying to make an effective program.

I'd be really interested if someone has an opinion about what makes an effective teaching program, where the main emphasis is on producing fluency, and would be willing to post it here. That would be very useful for any of us who don't have the time/money to take a Masters or for whom that program may lie in their future.

[sallycat]

c-way, if you want a ranking, i'd say difference between l1 and l2 is the biggest issue, followed by the appalling education system (i think your resons #4, 5, 6 & 7 are all symptoms of the education system).

[gaijinalways]

A lot of comments, been away on vacation;

Mark posted