Job Discussion Forums

[ThatGuy]

Hey all,

First off, this forum has been great in terms of answering certain questions of mine about teaching and living in Poland. However, I do have some questions since I am a total newbie in all of this.

This past summer, I was in Poland teaching English under a Church organization. Myself and my friends spent two weeks in an English camp and I absolutely loved it. It never occured to me how much fun teaching was and how challenging it can be. I also fell in love with Krakow, it's such a gorgeous city. I came home to the States and heavily contemplated this issue for months and now, I've come to the decision that teaching English is something I would want to pursue. Now comes my problem:

I have an Undergraduate degree (B.S.) in Computer Science and am currently employed in the Financial services market (i.e., banking) as a Software Developer. I currently enjoy my position but I'm looking for a different venue and I've desire to take a different path in life (hence my decision to take massive pay reduction and to teach). I understand that it is very difficult to find a job in Poland without certification and it's also difficult to find reputable schools in Poland. I see many acronyms: CELTA, TESOL, TEF, TESL, et al - all of which confuses me. Further analysis shows me the difference between the different certs (though some of them are the same, but differs in how a country refers to native speakers), anyhow, I've boiled it down to either a CELTA or TEFL. Thus leading me to my first point:

1) Which is highly preferred? CELTA or TEFL? I don't mind teaching both adults and children, but which would be a better decision to go with?

Now that I've boiled my certification choices to two types, the second point is:

2) What CELTA/TEFL (online preferred) schools are reputable?

Not only do I have to worry about not putting $1,000 into "Dewey, Cheatem, and Howe TEFL school", I'm also concerned that the TEFL/CELTA school of my choice is not internationally recognized (i.e., schools have never heard of it) so this leads me to point 3:

3) What TEFL/CELTA schools are not just reputable, but also recognized by a many institutions internationally?

Because I don't favor teaching adults or kids, this leads me to point 4:

4) Would it be better for me to get my TEFL cert over my CELTA or is there no real distinction anymore? I ask because I want to keep my options flexible, and flexibility is key to my success in living in Poland.

Now, I do have some friends who have been living there for years. I have a friend (an American) who is married to a Polish national, she's been there 8 years, and we have another friend who is just shy of 15 years in Poland. So I'm not without friends and company there. I'm currently learning Polish, so I will be able to communicate with my Polish students (albeit at a beginning level - something is better than nothing).

So now more questions:

5) Because of my background in Computer Science and having worked as a Software developer, what other venues should I pay attention too? Obviously, getting a job as a programmer in Poland will probably be out of the question but what other avenues can I pursue with computers?

6) I have no teaching experience, what is current outlook in the market? I'm not asking for "who is hiring" rather, I'm curious as to the survivability of new teachers in Poland, average wages of new teachers (with no real teaching experience except for two weeks this past summer), with a TEFL or CELTA?

I'm not looking for banters, so if you are bantering, I'm just going to ignore your post. I'm looking for real answers to my questions as that I'm serious about this decision. I am also going to be visiting my Polish Consulate to inquire more information about labor laws, taxes, and a list of reputable schools (if any) that the Consulate recommends. My goal is to move there in September 2007 or January 2008 (which I know are peak hiring seasons). I have money saved up for those dire moments. Again thank you for your time!

[ChiTownPole]

Hey ThatGuy,

I, too, currrently code for a living in the States and am looking to teach in Poland later this year, although my educational background differs greatly from yours and I kinda fell into computer work.

Anyhoo, far be it for me to disuade you from taking this career leap, but being very familiar with IT salaries in the US, and especially w/ you working in the financial market, you're in for a HUGE paycut. I'm guessing you're making anywhere b/w 65 and 120 $/yr. Even if you live in Omaha, NE and you're 2 years out of school, you're still making 10-fold what you'd expect to make in Poland. Of course, it's a differenct country, different culture, etc., etc., but you're really in for a major downslide in your standard of living. Now, if you've truly had many an honest discussions with yourself about that, and decided that money is not what motivates you at all when making career choices, then by all means, go for it.

Others here are much more knowledgeable about the various acronyms, but from what I know you can't go wrong with the Cambridge CELTA - recognized everywhere. That said, perhaps you shouldn't give up on the IT thing just yet. There are quite a few IT jobs available in the big cities, although sadly the salaries lag WAY behind those in the UK or the States. As a native speaker and someone w/ real-world programming experience from the States, you may be a very valuable asset to a group of programmers at Bank PKO in Gdynia, e.g. I know that Google's opening a branch in Krakow, but I'm very sketchy on the details, and I'm not even sure if there's gonna be any in-house development taking place there. But there are plenty of international consulting firms, big banking firms, etc. that are looking to hire, from what I know. Keep your options open. You may have had a very positive first experience w/ teaching, maybe met a cute Polish girl and figured that teaching is the way to go, but for someone with your background and experience there may be other avenues to pursue.

[ThatGuy]

hey ChiTownPole,

I'm guessing you're from Chicago, after all, ChiTown is what folks from Chicago call the Windy City.

I've actually looked at various avenues and yes, I understand that there is a massive paycut involved. I've had honest talks with myself and have questioned my own reasons for wanting to work in Poland, and yes, it's not about the money. I am looking to do something different, who knows, I might go back into development but I don't want to pass an opportunity such as this. If, suppose, the teaching falls through and I land a job in IT, trust me, I'm not going to close the doors on IT totally but maybe leave the door slightly closed and reopen it when I think it's time to go back to it.

My question: why CELTA? Also, does having a CELTA limit me to teaching adults only or is there flexibility with CELTA certs?

And yes, I've had a great time teaching! I met plenty of cute Polish girls,but heck, I've met a lot of them during my College years. Thanks for the reply!

[Sgt Bilko]

First of all, forget online teaching qualifications. Some people may accept them but far fewer than will accept the 'normal' four week course which includes about 7 hours of teaching practice. You could even do the CELTA at IH Krakow in September 2007 and do some job searching at the same time.

The CELTA seems to have the most kudos but probably there isn't much difference to that and the TESOL or other similarly organised courses. The thing with CELTA is that it has a universal standard so the school you do it at doesn't matter - it's the same qualification.

As for the Adults bit, this is one of the mysteries of the profession - how someone with a minimal qualification in teaching adults is able to get a job 50% (or more) of which is completely unrelated to anything they've ever learned.

However, that's the way it is, although don't tell the parents who spend a fortune to get their kids 'educated'. Even at a school with good training, most of the input will necessarily come after you've been teaching the children for a few weeks/months and, as they always tell you that you need to impose rules and regulations in your first lesson or the kids will suss you out and run riot, I think most people consider their first year of teaching children as a steep learning curve.

As for the computer skills, with more and more schools having computer classrooms, it is a way of getting promotion fairly quickly and without having to get the DELTA. Training teachers, designing educational activities etc. You still won't earn much but it may make your job a little more varied (reduced teaching hours)

So, I'd go with the CELTA (or Trinity TESOL) because of their acceptability around the world and, if you like teaching kids, try to take the CELTYL extension course after a year to learn more about teaching them.

All the best

[spiral78]

A basic acceptable course is 100+ hours on-site including at least 6 hours of supervised teaching practice, with feedback from trainers. A generic certification from a training centre that offers this basic course will be acceptable throughout Europe.

I want to emphasize that online qualifications are not considered sufficient by good schools, because of the lack of supervised teaching practice. This is very true throughout Europe, including Central Europe - there are many teacher training centres throughout the region, and someone trying to compete with an online cert is at a distinct disadvantage.

That said, CELTA is the biggest 'name.' Not necessarily the best course, but the most widely recognized.

One important point is that it's useful from many standpoints to get your certification in the country where you want to teach - your practice teaching students will be much more representative of the ones you'll be working with. Further, you'll find that the biggest market for private language schools throughout Europe is teaching businesspeople - usually at their offices. If you really wanted to teach children, you could do the additional component to CELTA. You would certainly not be limited to teaching adults.

FYI: Sgt. Bilko mentioned a DELTA qualification - it's a one-year course that is roughly equivalent to half an MA. You don't need that much to begin teaching, and, in fact, it's advisable to get a basic qualification and a couple of years of experience before pursuing more serious qualifications. (An MA TESL/TEFL holder without teaching experience is not necessarily more eagerly hired than someone with a basic cert + solid experience and references).

The hitch with getting into IT jobs in any foreign country is that you'll really need functional ability in the local language. You say you're studying Polish already (kudos to you), so if you keep it up, get a year or so under your belt, and make local contacts, you could certainly have some options in other fields - but I'd expect that in year 2+. Well-paid positions with international corporations go to those with the language skills, contacts, and local reputation. It takes some time to build this.

The typical route into some decent position is to go where you want to be (making sure you have enough financial cushion to get you through any potential bad luck moments, which I'd assume you do have), start as a newbie, gain language skills, contacts, and a reputation, and ultimately hopefully find some niche that works for you all round.

[ThatGuy]

Thanks for the reply, sorry mine's so late it's been a hectic couple of weeks.
I'm not going to give up the IT dream any time soon but my focus is to teach English (though I have applied for a couple of IT positions in Krakow). I understand that CELTA and the Trinity TESOL certs are very popular, however, I came across one that is being taught at a University close to me: SIT TESOL. My question is, how recognized is SIT TESOL? DePaul University (I'm from Chicago) has a SIT program and I'm curious as to recognition of the SIT TESOL. It is a classroom based training, 130 hours, 6 hours of actual teacher training and such. But I don't want to dump $2,300 for classes that are bunk once I get to Poland.

[ChiTownPole]

Dude, you're in Chicago? Why didn't you say so from the beginning. We should get together for a brew.

[Brooks]

what is SIT TESOL?

[ThatGuy]

[redsoxfan]

The SIT TESOL course is probably equivalent to the CELTA in terms of the quality of instruction. The number of instruction hours and the number of observed teaching hours (6) seems to be the same. Most schools would probably accept the SIT cert, but a few might not because they don't know what it is. If you choose to do the SIT TESOL course, I'd explain on your CV that it's a 130 hour course with 6 hours of critiqued teaching practice.

The CELTA course in Krakow is a good program, and it costs about $1000. If you're going to teach in Poland, the fact that you did the CELTA in Krakow would catch people's eyes. You'd have some experience teaching Poles, meaning that you'd already have some insight into the difficulties that Polish students face with English.

Of course, the most important factor in getting a job is simply to put together a nice, complete CV with your picture and to drop it off at every school in Krakow. Then go back to each school until you get to speak with the Director of Studies. Don't just leave it with the secretary. You can have all the qualifications in the world, but if some temp worker misplaces it (which they will very often) you won't get a call.

[joshsweigart]

I took the SIT course in Krakow a few years ago, although I don't think that it's still offered there. The course was extemely intense (12 hour days) and I believe that it contains a good balance of theory and practice. Some of their ideas are a little touchy-feely for my liking (a few activities include holding hands and discussing "how you feel" at the end of a lesson). There are also a lot of writing assignments which involve "reflecting" on your teaching. But even this was somewhat useful.

I have never had any problems finding work because I have this cert. instead of CELTA. When I took the course it cost about $ 1000 plus the cost of living in Krakow for a month. I'd say that if it costs $2300 in Chicago, just go to Krakow and take the CELTA for $1000. You won't need to worry about the visa anymore--just find a place to live and a job and you'll be alright.

[Brooks]

does SIT stand for the School for International Training?

[joshsweigart]

Yep.

I think they have centers in Japan.